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Adventures

063: Writing Welcome to Dragon Talk with Shelly Mazzanoble & Greg Tito

 

If you hang around the D&D scene, you likely have heard of Dragon Talk, the D&D podcast hosted by Greg Tito and Shelly Mazzanoble. Greg is the Senior Communications Manager of Dungeons & Dragons, and Shelly is the Senior Brand Manager of Dungeons & Dragons. We talk about what they’re up to in D&D. We talk about their show, and we talk about their upcoming book, Welcome to Dragon Talk. So yes, this is a podcast episode where we talk to two podcasters about their book about their podcast. Welcome to Dragon Talk is published by the University of Iowa press and is releasing December 5th. You can preorder it from your favorite bookstore and I think even your friendly local game store? If you do preorder it, you might receive it a little bit early. It truly was a honor to talk to these legends of the D&D podcasting realm, and I know y’all are going to have fun listening to this.

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Time Stamps

  • 00:00:00 Introduction, life updates & Patreon update
  • 00:05:36 Greg & Shelly Introduction
  • 00:15:05 When did you know you wanted to work in this industry?
  • 00:26:42 How Dragon Talk came to be
  • 00:32:19 How has your approach to interviewing changed over time?
  • 00:37:08 Finding guests
  • 00:39:20 Welcome to Dragon Talk: how it came to be
  • 00:50:03 Writing with a co-author
  • 00:55:41 Upcoming projects
  • 01:00:18 Where can people find you?
  • 01:01:49 Wrap-up

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Find Greg

Show Affiliates / Some of Courtney's favorite things

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Transcript

Hello & Welcome to Episode 63 of Roll Play Grow, the podcast for tabletop entrepreneurs, creators, and fans. I am Courtney Stover of Lightheart Adventures, and in this podcast, we talk to the creators behind the brands in the tabletop roleplay gaming space about who they are and how they are turning their passion for gaming into a career. 

Hi friends. Welcome back to the show. We’ve been on a hiatus, which started as intended in that it was a planned break for me to do a bit of recharging and get ahead a bit on episodes. And I suppose that technically I’ve come back in October, which is what I said I would do. The sad news is that I’m only kind of back. So originally, I was going to start interviewing a bunch of folks in September to release at the beginning of October. However, I had some more health complications crop up, which involved going to the ER and thus pausing my interviews for longer than anticipated. As for what is wrong, if you’re squeamish, maybe skip ahead like 30 seconds…. Okay, if you were here a year ago, then you may recall that I had surgery to correct my sternum, which was crushing my lungs and heart. They put a bar in there to push it out which was supposed to stay in for 4-5 years. Unfortunately, it would now seem as though for the last 5-7 months, it has been failing and the bar has completely fractured my sternum and is wrecking havoc on my entire rib cage. Yeah. It does not feel pleasant in the slightest. September 8th was only the latest of oh wow, that really hurts, maybe someone should take a look at this. And finally, I got a CT scan by going to the ER. They said everything looked fine. It then took 2 weeks for the images to get to my surgeon, he realized, oh. That’s really bad looking. And now we have surgery scheduled for the end of November because that was his first opening. So yeah. What started as a lovely break turned into another medical nightmare where I am kinda just sitting in pain for 3 months until this finally gets addressed. Which will then take several months to recover from.

So how does this impact the show? Basically, I have today’s amazing episode, and I’ll try and get some more done and published before I go out on medical leave, but to be totally honest, I can’t promise the typical weekly episode right now. I’ll try to maintain a semblance of a schedule, but it’s been hard to reschedule all of the interviews I had lined cuz being awake kind of hurts right now. But! Drama aside! Let’s talk about today’s amazing guests.

 

If you hang around the D&D scene, you likely have heard of Dragon Talk, the D&D podcast hosted by Greg Tito and Shelly Mazzanoble. Greg is the Senior Communications Manager of Dungeons & Dragons, and Shelly is the Senior Brand Manager of Dungeons & Dragons. We talk about what they’re up to in D&D. We talk about their show, and we talk about their upcoming book, Welcome to Dragon Talk. So yes, this is a podcast episode where we talk to two podcasters about their book about their podcast. Welcome to Dragon Talk is published by the University of Iowa press and is releasing December 5th. You can preorder it from your favorite bookstore and I think even your friendly local game store? If you do preorder it, you might receive it a little bit early. It truly was a honor to talk to these legends of the D&D podcasting realm, and I know y’all are going to have fun listening to this.

For a last bit of business before we jump in to the interview: I have a new Patreon gift for my amazing Patrons. In addition to the ability to ask questions for upcoming interviews, shout outs on the site and show, I am now starting a new segment exclusively for Patrons. Greg & Shelly were my first participants. I’m still workshopping on the name, but it is a Quick Question Blitz: I have 10 silly questions for my guests that are unrelated to the rest of the interview, and they can answer with as little as 1 word or give a longer explanation. It’s meant to be short & sweet, though I must admit this first one went like 20 minutes, but a good third of that is just pure laughter and fart jokes, and we did have 2 people to answer. Let’s just say, it was a good time. You’ll find me on Patreon at Roll Play Grow. And I hope that y’all enjoy the new segment!

That was a lot, so let’s go meet Greg and Shelly.

Courtney: 

Hello y’all. Today I have the incredible honor of introducing you to some legends in the D&D space. Greg Tito and Shelly Mazzanoble. Hello you two, How are you?

Shelly: 

Hi. Well, I, I’m feeling pretty good about being called a legend.

Greg: 

Oh, right, Legendary. Be legendary.

Courtney: 

I mean, it’s true though, y’all are kind of the face of D&D podcasting, and I’m just super excited to talk to you.

Greg: 

that’s sweet. I’m, we’re excited too. There’s so much amazing stuff happening in the D&D podcasting world.

Courtney: 

Yeah, it’s been a pretty fun niche to be digging into for sure. Well, to kick things off, can you tell us a bit about yourself, what you do and where you’re from?

Shelly: 

Okay. This makes me feel like I’m a Miss America contestant. My name is Shelly Mazzanoble! I’m from Binghamton, New York. But yes, currently residing in Seattle, Washington. I am the senior brand manager for Dungeons and Dragons, and I love my day job. I absolutely am thrilled to come to work every day and work on this incredible brand, talk to wonderful people like you, Courtney, and work with really wonderfully smart, passionate people like Greg. And we wrote a book together, Greg and I. We are the co-host for the official Dungeons and Dragons podcast called Dragon Talk. And we were fortunate enough to be asked to write a book about our experiences in the podcast world and how Dragon Talk came to be and some of the amazing people that we get to talk to every week on Dragon Talk. So we are very excited about that upcoming publication. Comes out in December, but you can pre-order it now.

Greg: 

Woohoo. You’re getting better at that, Shelly.

Shelly: 

Thank you.

Greg: 

I guess I should go next? I am Greg Tito, as you said, with that wonderful, legendary introduction. I am the communications manager for Dungeon and Dragons. So that means, basically when people ask me like, What does that mean? It just means getting the word out about D&D as much as I can to press, and everybody who has come into this hobby about our new products that are coming out. I grew up in Connecticut, lived in New York for 10 years, moved to North Carolina and was a game journalist for five years, and have been working with Shelly for around seven years. It’s gonna be eight years in March. And one of my favorite parts about working at, Wizards of the Coast, has been our podcast Dragon Talk that we kind of fell into doing and becoming a major part of how we, in fact get the word out about D&D. So it’s been wonderful introducing new people to the hobby through Dungeons and Dragons, as well as elevating what being a D&D fan means by showcasing folks who are super creative in their you know, professional endeavors but just happened to play D&D, so it’s been really great and we’re excited about getting our book, Welcome to Dragon Talk, out there to be the hopefully conduit for more people to enter this hobby and you know, get some of the benefits that our guests and all of the people that we wrote essays about you know, into more, more people into this hobby.

Courtney: 

Well, we are definitely gonna dig into the podcast and the book because I wanna know everything. But I’m just, I’m kinda curious right now, like you work with D&D. How much do you get to play it for fun and what are you playing?

Greg: 

Hmm.

Shelly: 

Such a good question. I know. I think people would be surprised to hear that we don’t get to play it that often. But I am lucky enough to be in a weekly group with some other coworkers. We play Friday afternoons, usually around lunch. And we were playing, currently we’re playing Spelljammer, which has been so much fun. We got to play it a little bit before it came out, and I was just bursting to talk about it cuz I was thinking like, people have no idea how much fun they’re about to have. It’s such a wild, weird, crazy setting. I love it so much.

Greg: 

Yeah. And I play, you know, relatively often. I wouldn’t say I’m in a, a, you know, every time a weekly cadence just because we’re adults and the big, bad, evil, you know every single D&D campaign is scheduling and trying to make sure we, we, we have time to get together. But my most consistent time of playing now has been on the podcast itself with Shelly as Drunkie Two-shoes, as we are, you know, ending at each episode with a little mini five to 10 minute session of the ongoing adventures of Shelly’s amazing Tabaxi character.

Shelly: 

One of my favorites and I, you know, I’ve will say also I’ve been, as I’ve been getting my DM feet under me, more and more people friends and neighbors have come to me asking like, “What is this Dungeons and Dragons thing you speak of?” They’re, they’re curious because their kids are becoming curious. And so I have been volunteering to run, teach people how to play and run games for neighbors. We’ve actually got next, next week, next Friday, we’ve got some neighbors coming over who’ve never played before, so I hope to give them a good first experience with D&D. d

Greg: 

Yeah. And similarly, I had some kids who my friends of the family who were getting into it and they’re like, Can we, They were like, “Can we just, can you just run the game for them?” We’ll pay you. I’m like, No, I don’t want money. I wanna just play, I wanna introduce everybody into playing it. So we’re using the new starter set and unfortunately our last session got canceled because two of the kids were sick. But we are excited to jump into that and like Right, teach, you know, nine, 10 year olds how to play D&D. It’s gonna be a wild experience. I’ve played with kids before and they’re always so wide eyed and come up with the craziest, most fun, you know, solutions to everything, wonderful voices and, and everything just seems to be like not what you do as an adult. And that just makes it so fun.

Shelly: 

It is true. Like they’re always trying to tame the monsters. and I fully support this. It’s like a big scary monster is coming and they’re like, We’re gonna try to be its friend.

Greg: 

Yeah. Can I snuggle with it?

Shelly: 

I think it’s just lonely. Okay, maybe. Let’s try.

Courtney: 

And then I know, Shelly, that you’re about to start up a club at school.

Shelly: 

Oh my gosh, I don’t even know who I am anymore. I’m just out here throwing my, my services to the masses. But yes, it’s like, you know, we’ve, we’ve been putting a lot of effort this year to provide educators with tools on how to bring D&D into their classrooms. Fully knowing and understanding how powerful this game can be as a teaching tool. And we are definitely not the first to do this. As will be evidenced by reading our book. There are plenty of wonderful educators who have been out there using D&D in ways to reach kids that maybe are struggling in, you know, personal and, and learning environments, but, D&D really helps like bring out this love of learning and this passion for reading and writing and, and even math. Like we, we have heard kids actually say the words, “I love D&D because I like doing all the math.” Like, you can come to my table anytime kid and just do that math for me because that is not my favorite part. 

But yeah. So we, one of the things that we’ve done this year is we’ve relaunched our after school club kits. So if you are a club organizer, if you work at an enrichment center or an after school club or a school or a library and you want to start a D&D club and you don’t know where to begin, we will send you the kit. It’s got everything you need to get that club up and running, including a copy of the brand new starter set that just came out, Dragons of Stormwreck Isle. So I figured, you know, I’m putting all this effort into making these materials and spreading the word about them. Perhaps I should actually be doing what I’m hoping other people are doing. My son’s in elementary school and I just, just one day put a note out to the principal and asked if they’d be interested in a D&D club, and I just said, Universe, if I’m meant to do this, I’ll do it. And she’ll say yes. And like six seconds later she wrote back. She was like, “Yes, yes, we definitely want that. Thank you. You’re in.” So here we go. It’s gonna be for fourth and fifth graders. Up until about a month ago, my son was actually on the fence about joining it. He was like, Ah, I don’t know I might wanna do that Lego Club instead. But lately I think he has been hearing a lot more about D&D and he’s changed his tune considerably. He’s like, “Wow, you know, mom, D&D is actually really popular.” I’m like, Is it No way. So you will join my club. It’s like, I’m in. I’m definitely in.

Courtney: 

That’s awesome.

Shelly: 

We’ll see. We’ll see how it goes. Wish me luck.

Courtney: 

You know, I mean it’s that whole like, Oh, I don’t wanna do what my mom does, but that’s actually really cool

Shelly: 

but what your mom does is actually cool. And his dad, his dad also works at Wizards, so he’s just surrounded by the nerddom, the Magic and the D&D. So yeah, he’s, he’s finally coming to realize, I think due to some good old fashioned peer pressure that D&D is cool.

Courtney: 

D&D is cool. So y’all have been working in the industry for a while, and I’m sure that you’ve probably told your origin story a million times, but what I would like to know is, was there a particular moment you can think of where you just knew that you wanted to work in this space?

Shelly: 

Hm.

Courtney: 

Or did it just kind of happen?

Shelly: 

Greg, do you have one?

Greg: 

Yeah, I’m trying to think if there was a specific moment. I think that I, Yes, I, I can, I can think of one thing. So I, I, there’s actually a, a connection to now here, so my d&D origin story which I’ll just briefly summarize cuz you’re right, I have told it many times, but I was not allowed to play. My mom was a, well, still is a Catholic and believer of all the propaganda that D&D is somehow bad for you. We all know that’s not true at this point, but it was hard for me to find a group early on, and it wasn’t until I was, you know, past college and married and living in New York City that I was like, Oh, wait a second. I don’t have to listen to what my mom says right now. I can actually go and play D&D. So I found this group, and this group in New York City ended up being really instrumental for the trajectory of my life. As many of the people have said on, on Dragon Talk when they come in like that, there’s just sometimes, you know, you make lifelong connections. And one of the people that was in this group, many of them went on to work in the, in the tabletop industry, which is strange and, and coincidental. 

But one of them was named Aton Bernstein, and he was a contributor to D&D in the late 3.5 era as, as a freelance writer and RPG designer and developer. And he was getting ready for fourth edition, which was being developed, and he had the playtest document for that. And so we played some of that, and that was really the first time where I realized that you could Earn money from writing RPG material. And that seemed really exciting to me. I was a playwright, a standup comedian, was trying to be creative in New York City while having many, many day jobs. And so this was just another avenue– we were talking about side hustles before we started recording– but that was, this was when I was like, Oh, maybe I can, I can start doing this type of thing. And so meeting Aton and talking with him and seeing his success in that sphere was the first time I was really like, Huh, this could actually be a career path, not necessarily just a amazing pastime that I get. You know, I’m, I’m, you know, do that dream thing of trying to meld your, your interests with your career. And Aton was doing it and I was like, I can do that too. And so that was probably the first time. And the funny thing is, is that Aton we knew each other in in New York City. He moved around a bunch, but he now lives in the Seattle area and is now a employee of Wizards of the Coast. So, and he actually lives in West Seattle. I don’t know if you know that Shelly. Uh, But he lives pretty close to us. And so I was able to hang out with him a couple months ago. And we just really caught up on like, Oh, man, what is strange coincidence that we were in this group back in like, you know, 2004, 2005. And you know, here we are kind of together working as colleagues on such an amazing, you know, thing here in Wizards of the Coast.

Courtney: 

That’s so fun.

Greg: 

Yeah, I know, right? It’s like life is weird.

Shelly: 

I didn’t know all that.

Courtney: 

Yeah. What about you, Shelly?

Shelly: 

So I came to Wizards of the Coast, many, many, many moons ago. I I have actually been working there over 20 years now, and I was not a typical gamer, although I love, you know, board games, card games, party games, more mainstream games. I had never had any experience with Magic The Gathering, or Dungeons and Dragons when I had my interview. And fortunately they were like, Oh, that’s okay. We can teach you. But I will say that there’s a few pivotal moments when I realized this is a space I wanted to be in. One was actually during my interview when I went into the offices of Wizards of the Coast, they were huge compared to like this 20 person office I was working in prior to coming to Wizards. So thousands of people, were, were there, but they also had all these creativity stations set up everywhere, like puzzles or like tinker toys or just whatever, like. Oh, take a break. Just clear your mind, do a puzzle, things like that. 

And it was like so shocking to me because I had come from this environment where it was like, you need to write down the time that you’re leaving for lunch and you need to write down the time that you’re coming back and it better not be more than 60 minutes that you’ve been gone. And here I am now in this space with like these creative people that are just like, yeah, like we’re just just doing creative stuff all the time. And everybody in the interview was so passionate and really dedicated and funny and kind, and I just was like, These feel like people I want to be around. Thankfully I got hired for the job and got to meet more of my coworkers and that really cemented it for me that there’s something different about these people than any other group of people that I’ve ever worked with. 

A lot of them were at Wizards because of how passionate they were about the, the games that Wizards was producing and that passion just sort of spreads throughout everyone. And then another, shortly after my employment, I got sent to GenCon, which for, if anyone listening who may not know what GenCon is, it’s a massive game convention, annual convention at in Indianapolis now, but at this time it was still in Milwaukee. So I had probably been employed at Wizard for like a month and they were like, Pack your bags, you’re going to GenCon. And I had no idea what to expect there. And that was another just real shocking moment for me to see this huge convention just filled with people gaming. And that’s when I really, it became very evident to me that this was a culture that was, I had not known existed and was huge. And the joy that people were experiencing from playing games, not just Wizards games, but from all games, it just felt like there was this a place where all of these people belonged and you could just feel the inclusion and like the, the, the joy of, of people all being together and experiencing games for three, four days. 

So that was also very enlightening to me that I began to realize that games were, were more than just entertainment. For some people, this really was a part of their identity. This really was an escape. This really was something that was necessary to their lives. And then I would say the third time was when I’ve finally played Dungeons and Dragons, probably about seven years into my employment at Wizards. I avoided it. For many years I was scared of Dungeons and Dragons. I didn’t think it was a game that I would be into because I don’t typically gravitate towards fantasy. And I also thought that there was a lot of math involved. And unlike that middle schooler that said, I like all the math in D&D, I don’t want to do that. I thought you had to know like so many rules and just read so many rule books. That’s what we were publishing. So obviously! But I was encouraged cuz I was now working on the D&D team to please learn how to play this game. And I got to play with coworkers. Most of them were also new to D&D, which was great. But after that very first game when I got to play my beloved Elf Sorceress, Astrid Bellagio, I was absolutely gobsmacked because I realized I was so wrong about what this game really was. And it was so obvious even after just one month, one hour of playing that I could see the importance in what D&D could offer people, and I already felt so bonded to those six coworkers that I basically just ran into in the kitchen, you know, filling up our coffee. 

I loved the storytelling aspect. I loved the creativity. I loved that I could embody this character, this fantasy version of me that was so much more badass than I could ever imagine being. I loved working with my party and not against, I don’t, I’m not super competitive in real life. So the collaboration was, was really exciting to me. It just completely opened up my mind to what this game was and what this game could be, and I realized I don’t, I, I just wanna to spend my days working on Dungeons and Dragons and spreading the word, because I know there’s more people like me out there that have avoided playing D&D or just like meh, yeah, doesn’t seem like something I’d be into and I just want wanted them to know. No, no, no. Give it a chance cuz it really could be something that you’re into. I think you can make D&D anything that that you want. You can ratchet up the fantasy, you can ratchet down. You can play a modern version of D&D. You can play a version based off of your favorite movie or your favorite book. It’s really the storytelling part. It’s really the friendship part. It’s the social interaction, it’s the creativity, especially for adults. It’s all of those things that we don’t get to do that often anymore because we’re supposed to be responsible adults and bill payers and taking care of families and pets and homes and stuff. But it’s so necessary. It’s so needed, and it was just it was just very obvious to me in those moments that this, this game, how special this game really was.

Courtney: 

Yeah. I don’t know about you guys, but I’m feeling very inspired right now.

Shelly: 

Oh,

Greg: 

Yay.

Shelly: 

Yay. Mission accomplished.

Courtney: 

Yeah. No, I mean, it’s, it’s so true. Like this game has just been so life changing for me and for so many other people, and it’s just, it’s so awesome to hear that like, I mean, I, I didn’t realize you’d been there for 20 years. Like that’s a long time to be at any company, but like to still be in love with the products, like that’s wild.

Shelly: 

That’s what it is. Like it’s just, it keeps changing. It keeps like, there’s just D&D keeps evolving. We keep finding new ways to bring new people into the game. And now with the podcast and just everything that we’re doing there, it’s like this doesn’t even sometimes feel like a job because we just get to be around such creative people and, and talk to creative people. And just, I remember, I think it was actually during a Dragon Talk interview, like Greg said, somebody had said like, Wow, your job must be really hard. I think it was while Greg was in the middle of planning a D&D live event, and that is a lot of work. And Greg had said it is a lot of work, but it doesn’t feel like work because we know what we’re doing is so important to so many people, and I always tell people like it doesn’t feel like marketing, even though that’s my job. I feel like we’re actually doing a good service for people, letting them know how that this game exists and how to start playing it. Because the benefits you’re gonna get from it are gonna be life changing.

Courtney: 

I would love it to dive into Dragon Talk now and just learn more about like the history, how it’s evolved over time. And by the way, 400 episodes. That’s wild. Congrats.

Greg: 

Thanks. Yeah. Well, I mean the podcast started and this is what’s interesting too, like the actual feed that Dragon Talk is on now was the original Acquisitions Incorporated live play through with the Penny Arcade folks and people from the D&D studio playing some of the first live play content that I remember hearing back when, you know, it was like 2008, 2009 when it began, and some incarnation of that continued. Obviously it’s gone on to more live shows and all that with Chris Perkins and now Jeremy Crawford running that for those folks. But that was kind of the start of this, this whole idea, and various people picked it up at Wizards from various points. We actually had to do a lot of digging into how did this start again when we were writing the book, because some of it is like kinda lost to time. And so, you know, Shelly mentioned that Bart Carroll also works at in, in the D&D team and he had taken up as well as various peoples within the D&D studio. And when I joined in 2015 it was an irregular kind of thing, was just like, well, we had some guests, we did some conversations with people within the building about, you know, new board games or new supplements that were being developed. And Shelly I, I was just brand new. I, I had come from a world where content production and, and game journalism was like, You gotta make it, you gotta do stuff, you gotta always hit your deadlines. And I had been working at Wizards for about a month or so, and I was certainly doing things, but there was this sense of like, Man, I, I, I’m, I’m ready to, I’m chomping at the bit to do more. I see so much as Shelly was saying, like the excitement about, you know, quote unquote marketing for D&D I was like, ready. I was already in it to win it and, and trying to get more people to play this game. And so Shelly just randomly said, Hey, we’re gonna record a podcast. Do you wanna come with us? And I was like, Yes, Yes, I do. 

And I joined one session, and I think there was four hosts to two guests. And we were, so it was a little bit of an overkill in that situation, but I loved the format, I loved the camaraderie between you know, obviously Shelly and I, but also Bart Carroll and Trevor Kid were in that podcast. And that group of four hosts morphed and changed over the next year or so until finally Shelly and I were just like, Hey, we’re gonna run with this. We’re gonna change the name. We had just called it the official Dungeons and Dragons podcast. That’s what the, the title said and the RSS feed. And we were like, Hmm, let’s do some branding, you know exercises. And so we went through a bunch of different names, a bunch of different logos by the amazing Emmy Tanji to kind of rebrand what this Dragon Talk was. 

We, we started with a weekly cadence you know, so that we could have an audience that could depend on a new episode every week generally and also try to get more high profile guests. I think I was inspired by the fact that Shelly and Bart had spoken to Dan Harmon the creator of Community about his D&D episodes when they were coming out. And I was like, I bet there’s a lot more people like that. And of course I did a little bit of digging, got a few leads from people. Now, Liz Shoe, for example, was like, Hey, I think Matthew Lillard plays D&D. I have his email from some random time they had met at a GenCon, I believe where he was talking about it. And I just like, you know, reached out and be like, Hey, do you wanna, you know, come on Dragon Talk. And then all of a sudden that has changed. 

And that has basically been a lot of the similar stories of, of getting people on this podcast in that by inviting them in they feel like they’re a part of the community from the get go and have, similar to the way Shelly and I got into this game, as soon as they get that first taste of being a part of this amazing hobby, they just wanna do more and continue and, and have more influence and do more projects that are D&D adjacent, such as streaming or podcasts or creating things. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s really where the, the short version of how the podcast came about. But we do go into it in, in a lot more detail in Welcome to Dragon Talk. So a little bit about that book, it starts off with a… you know, with the idea that perhaps people who are picking this book up are not D&D fans yet. And so we talk about what D&D is. 

We talk a little bit about our history and how the podcast came about. Again, a longer version of what I just did. And then we have around 30 essays that Shelly and I alternate back and forth talking about the interview and the specific guests that we have had over the seven years or so that we’ve been doing this together and, and trying to illuminate different parts of the D&D community through their, the essays around that, that interview, as well as our personal reaction to them. And it’s been, you know, kind of amazing, not only writing this book with Shelly and kind of going back and doing all this research and kind of really seeing what influence Dragon Talk has had on the D&D community, but then also talking about it here, it feels very much, you know, like, gosh, I really can’t mean even just, you know, you Courtney saying like, I can’t believe Shelly’s been there for 20 years. I feel like that I can’t believe I’ve been here for seven years and that it is been a, you know, blink of an eye because it feels like so much of what we’re doing is keeping us energized and the community keeps on growing based on you know, some of the, the folks that we’ve been talking about as well as, you know, all the external things of people wanting to get into this game and enjoying it as much as they do.

Courtney: 

I imagine that has to be like such a whirlwind of time that with just all of the people that you’ve talked to and all of the stories that you’ve heard and all of like the events that you like, get to be a part of and play in. Yeah,

Greg: 

I know.

Shelly: 

It’s a good day job if you have to have a day job. This is a good one to house

Courtney: 

For sure. How would you say that your approach to hosting Dragon Talk has changed over the years?

Greg: 

Huh. What do you think Shelly?

Shelly: 

Well think listening back to some of these early, early Dragon Talks to research them for writing this book. I will say that in my head as I was listening, I came up with the same exact jokes that I did like seven years ago. So maybe, maybe we haven’t evolved as much as, as we like to think. No, I don’t know. I mean, I hope that we’ve gotten just better as hosts and that it feels very conversational and that sometimes people pop on and they’re a little bit nervous and we are just like, Well, we’re just a couple of nerds that just wanna talk about Dungeons and Dragons. And that kind of puts them more at ease. But I think just the more people that we talk to, the more that this community expands and we see that. All of the cool stuff people are doing to support this hobby. I, Greg and I are genuinely excited and enthusiastic about learning about what these creators are doing. So I think in that way this hasn’t changed. And that’s more of just our approach is genuine curiosity and excitement and just wanting to help elevate who these creators are. So my answer I think is I that I hope we’ve just gotten better, just in general. Maybe not, but I, we haven’t actually changed our enthusiasm and love for talking to the different creators has not changed. It’s only kind of grown, I think, for both of us.

Greg: 

I, I think the only thing that’s changed for me has been a kind of confidence. I would say each time we were about to start a podcast back in, you know, 2015, 2016, I would be very nervous. I would get that, you know, kind of stage fright feeling, even though I knew I was just gonna be hanging out with my friends, talking D&D as soon as the podcast started usually that, that, that feeling went away which was similar to when I would go on stage or something like that. You know, you get that kind of, those jitters. And I think over the last seven years, those jitters have, were reduced. And then when we went on Twitch for a while, they, it got heightened because all of a sudden there was this extra production layer of having to record live and on camera and, and, you know, kind of create you know, another part of entertainment visually. But even that after time became much more… I wouldn’t wanna say commonplace, but you know, I would imagine it’s just when you, when you become more professional about it, you’re like, Oh, this is what I do and I’m, I’m pretty good at it, I think. And so you just going through and, and, and growing in that way was, was super gratifying. And I, I, I now look forward to the times I get to speak with Shelly and our guests instead of like the, Oh no, I hope I’m okay type of feeling. So yeah, I think that over that, it’s, it’s certainly grown. I mean, I think ha creating anything on a, on a regular basis, you get a muscle memory. And that has certainly, you know, made me more excited to, to talk to folks and beyond Microphone while doing it,

Shelly: 

We’re still not great at ending the podcast

Greg: 

true. It’s true.

Shelly: 

We’re, still working on that part. Like, I have no idea. Like Ryan, who is our producer just kind of cuts us off.

Greg: 

Yeah.

Shelly: 

It just ends. But Greg and I would just keep, keep right on talking until the next week’s interview.

Courtney: 

Yeah. Honestly, I feel a little awkward every time I end my episodes too, because it’s like, Okay, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. No, thank you. No, I just,

Greg: 

Right. We experimented with catch phrases for a while, and then that’s where we’re like, Oh, why don’t we just do like these little mini D&D sessions? Which was a great idea, and I think it is a good ending point. But even those are like, like, All right, we’re done now. And Shelly, you’ve, you’ve taken it as being Okay. Thank you,

Shelly: 

You can’t just like hang up. It’s just, Yeah. It’s, It’s, very hard.

Greg: 

So now we just fade out. It’s like a long,

Shelly: 

what he does. just, he just fades us away.

Courtney: 

Oh my gosh, I love it so much.

Greg: 

And of course, a shout out to Ryan, Marth and his company. He’s been around, I mean, actually as long as I’ve been there. He’s been the audio engineer and producer through his company, and it’s been really wonderful having him and Lisa Carr helping with all of the production of it. It’s been, it, it, Shelly and I thankfully do get to just you know, we’ll work on our guests and all that, but, it is very nice to be able to, to, after the recording is done, to have someone be able to clean it up and polish it for us.

Shelly: 

Yeah,

Greg: 

And Ryan, we, the Dragon Talk would not be around without Ryan.

Shelly: 

no.

Courtney: 

Thank you Ryan, for all of your work.

Greg: 

Shout out to Ryan.

Courtney: 

so you said something about like y’all are the ones coordinating with the guests. How do you find all of your guests?

Greg: 

Well usually early on it was Twitter. I would, you know, as part of my job, be eternally online as we, as many of us are but specifically around the DMD community. And I would just hear people telling funny stories or, or, you know shout out someone and get some notoriety for some D&D adjacent thing that they’re doing. Or here that an actor or television creator is a fan of D&D. I would just cold reach out and sometimes they were nice enough to respond. I think it’s still crazy to me that I, we were had John August and Craig Mazen who do the Script Notes podcast and are extremely successful screenwriters in their own right. And are very effusive about their praise of D&D on their own podcast. And they came on and it was amazing to be able to be like, Oh man, these are people who have written you know, blockbuster hits and, you know Craig Mason’s working on the last of us right now, as well as just doing Chernobyl. And so, you know, these people who are at the top of their game in the screenwriting thing, and they were happy enough to come on and nerd out about talking about D&D. And so that was just one example of like, the many people are just like, Huh, I don’t know. Maybe they will get in touch with us. We’ll see. Obviously, you know, lots of cold things don’t necessarily pan out, but some do. And then once we were able to bring on Lisa Carr she’s been fantastic at finding guests that are a little even beyond that circle of people who just happen to have mentioned D&D and actively find them. Cuz as you mentioned, as we get up to, you know, 300, 400 episodes, it’s, we have prided ourselves on widening that net and getting as many people into the D&D community and highlight what they’re doing. So it is, is a mix of trolling through social media and finding people, and then word of mouth inviting folks who may have some, you know, creative connection to D&D.

Shelly: 

And a lot of times listeners will also recommend people, which I really appreciate.

Greg: 

True. Yeah. That’s awesome. Cuz you’re like, Oh yeah, that, that’s, you know, it’s like getting, seeing a review. You’re like, Oh yeah, I’ll reviewing of podcast guests, I’ll, I’ll I’ll take

Courtney: 

That’s awesome. I do wanna make sure we spend plenty of time talking about this book that y’all have given a little bit of a highlight of what it is. But I would just love to dig into like a little bit more about how it’s structured and how it came to be.

Shelly: 

Oh, it is like a gift. Like we got we, we, I got an email from an editor at the University of Iowa Press. She, I don’t know if, Courtney, you’re aware of this, but I have written, I have written two previous books about Dungeons Dragons. I don’t, I still don’t believe that like saying those words, hearing them coming out of my mouth is still shocking to me. Like what you did. But yes I did. And she had read those books. She listened to Dragon Talk and she was like, I think this could be an interesting book to talk about Dragon Talk the podcast and how that came to be and how you and Greg worked together on it and is this something you’d be interested in writing? And I didn’t respond to her for a little while cuz I was like, this spam, is this a fishing scam? Like what is happening here? You don’t just get emails from editor. Asking to write books, but I guess when D&D, you do. So I, I finally wrote her back and tried to confirm that she was a, actually a real person. And I was like, Yeah, I think this sounds really interesting. And went to Greg and was like, Y ya in you wanna do this? And we had kind of come up with the idea of we really wanted to focus on the D&D community and as the subtitle implies, the conversations we’ve had with people who, who love Dungeons and Dragons and how diverse this community is and all of the different types of people that play Dungeons and Dragons that you just may not have thought of. And a lot of times these interview, well all of the time these interviews do resonate with Greg and I in, in some way. 

So we thought it would be cool to share a selection of these essays and talk about personal connections that maybe we had, or things that we had come to realize after talking to this person. And just, it thought it was a really unique way to not just, you know, promote this podcast, but to really promote the breadth of the D&D community and the ways in which this game has impacted so many lives. So that was the idea that we ended up pitching to the editor and thankfully she was on board with that. And yeah, so Greg and I just went back to the Well and thought about some of the, the interviews that were really impactful to us personally, and we came up with our list, compared our list. We really only had like, just a tiny little bit of overlap, which was very strange. But it was, it’s a good proof point that there’s so much in this community that there’s so much diversity here and that people can be impacted in so many different ways. Hearing these stories of, of other creators, which I think is hopefully something that readers of this book are gonna take away from that. They’re gonna see like, Oh yes, I, I’m connecting here with this person. I see a little bit of myself in this person, and just hopefully they feel like they’re, they’re part of this community as well, or they can see themselves being part of this community.

Courtney: 

How did you narrow down which ones to talk about?

Greg: 

I mean, as Shelly said, we had each of us were like, Okay, I wanna write about this person. I wanna write about this person. And our lists were, fairly distinct. There was only a few, I think Krystina Arielle was one that we both really wanted to write about because we had a, a really strong connection to her. She was fantastic and is a wonderful contribution to the D&D community. But what was really cool was that, you know, each of us had different connections with, with different stories that people told during the podcast. And that just made these essays so much easier to write honestly, because it was not necessarily about taking the interview and transcribing it, it was about making sure that there was this through line, this narrative story. And the ones that affected me were you know, easy for me to put on the list. And the ones that affected Shelly were easy for her to put on the list. And it was ones that, you know, kind of went outside the norm or did something that was you know, really personally affecting. And that was, that was the best way to kind of narrow it down and make sure beyond that, that we had a good representation of, of so many of the different types of people that we have talked to for, for the 300 plus episode. So, yeah, that was, it was, it was honestly not as hard as we thought it was going to be. I thought we were gonna be like, Oh my gosh, there’s hundreds and hundreds, you know, and we’re gonna have to really kind of narrow it down. But the writing was what made it possible, right? By being able to be like, Huh, what is the story that we can tell from these interviews? Those, those kind of leapt from our brains onto the page. And that’s, that’s how we kind of made the determination of which ones we were gonna write about

Shelly: 

Yeah, and I think we have types for sure. Like there are definitely, everybody knows my type is did you just do something for kids with D&D or with like in therapeutic ways of using D&D, Like, that’s gonna pull up my heartstrings. Greg’s too, for sure, but like, I am just a big geek about kids learning how to play D&D. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say also that Greg, when we talk to like really strong women and who are empowering young, young adults. I feel like maybe because you have two daughters like you, those that really resonates with you a lot. I feel it myself as well. But I definitely like you. You can definitely see like the emotion coming out when when we get to talk to women like that.

Greg: 

Oh, totally. Especially, yeah, like the coming of age story for, for for young you know, it’s similar to my daughters. Oh my gosh. I just end up tearing up like, like I’m watching a, a car commercial you know, the one.

Shelly: 

The hamsters in the back of the Kia commercial?

Greg: 

Well, it’s tearing up for different reasons. No, it’s the one where it’s the young daughter driving and then all of a sudden it’s the 16 year old driving. I’m like, Oh yeah, this 30 seconds says, Turn me into a puddle. But yeah, no, totally. I also think I have, the other type I have I think is performers. I really have you know, a love for people who are, you know, either theater people or working in the entertainment industry and have found an outlet on a more regular basis. Cuz sometimes you don’t get the you know, being able to exercise that craft 100% of a time because, you know, you need collaborators. But with D&D you know, you can make that happen. And I think, folks like Omega Jones and his, you know affinity to the bard class as well as being a, a singer and a performer in his own right was one reason why I wanted to write about their story. And Matthew Willard, as I mentioned before, as well as folks who are kind of not necessarily behind the scenes, but directors you know, we talked to Kyle Balda and I was just fascinated with his idea of using dungeon mastering as a comparison to directing film which I never really kind of groked at all. But the way he describes it is like, you know, you’re doing, you’re directing, but in real time, you’re doing it, you know, and creating things. Most of the directing that he does as an animator at Illumination Studio is, working five years on a project before it ends up being shown in front of an audience. But, you know, here he got to make his D&D sessions running Curse of Strahd, and direct in the full view of the audience as it’s happening, as he is making these decisions. And I thought that was such a cool story. So stuff like that always tickles me we got to write about a bunch of those.

Courtney: 

God, I am so excited to read this book. Was there anything that you would say was like particularly challenging about getting this book together?

Shelly: 

I mean, we do have day jobs. We do have kids. So getting the time to actually write it was the, probably the most challenging. Fortunately, it was fun, I would say. I would actually say it was fun to write this book. Hopefully that comes through when you’re reading it. But but yeah, getting the time to write it, definitely the biggest challenge for me and just really wanting to do right by the D&D community, I think, and, and these wonderful guests that we were privileged enough to be, not just talking to, but also writing about.

Greg: 

I think the challenge for me was procrastination is my cross to bear. I have, you know, as I mentioned, I’ve always been wanting to write as a, as a career. I’ve done many different things and sometimes when you don’t have that deadline looming, it can be hard to create. And so what was both a challenge but also really gratifying to be able to work on this with Shelly, is that we fed off each other’s procrastination and or maybe guilt surrounding procrastination so that the two of us we, I don’t think we ever had to be like, Hey dude, you better finish that. Or, you know, Oh, you we’re late on our deadlines. We, but just the two of us writing together at the same time was enough of an internal guilt trip for us that we, you know, so if I knew Shelly was writing and, and we often had a shared document open, or we were in you know, a chat program together, and we would make comments back and forth as we were working late at night, as the only time that we were able to, to find time to do this. It was just encouraging. And it was this way of like, Oh, okay, well I, I have some accountability here. I don’t wanna let down Shelly. I don’t wanna let down you know, all the other people who are depending on, it’s for this book, but it. It kind of slayed that procrastination demon for me because I was… I don’t know. I just, I had the motivation that I honestly had lacked for the four decades of my life beforehand to finish things. And so it was really great, you know, so it was both this challenge and also really gratifying to be able to have such an awesome, you know, co-author like Shelly around to very subtly, you know, Keep, keep me writing.

Shelly: 

Yeah, it definitely helps. Deadlines help and not wanting to disappoint your co-author,

Greg: 

and co-host.

Courtney: 

Yeah, I’m definitely the type of person that, like, I will never be accountable to myself, but if someone else is counting on me,

Shelly: 

Yes, it. it’s true. It’s really true.

Greg: 

Yeah, show must go on.

Courtney: 

Shelly, I’m interested to know, since you have written two books before this, how you felt about having a partner, like a co-author, you know, how was it different? Would you wanna do it again? Maybe Plug your ears, Greg. I don’t know.

Greg: 

Man,

Shelly: 

I would absolutely do this again with Greg because it did work. It worked really well. And it’s the first two books, you know, like you said, you’re only really accountable, well, you’re accountable to your publisher and your editor. So that, again, I just, I don’t wanna disappoint people when it comes to writing. I feel so grateful for any opportunity to get to, to share stories with the world that I, I will do what you tell me to do. I will make deadlines. I will be respectful. I will take your feedback. I love editors, all of it. Greg and I have talked about this. I was nervous at, like, it is, it’s a big undertaking to have a co-author because we’re, you do have to depend on that other person, he has to depend on me. We, there’s a lot of trust here that we’re both going to uphold the commitments that we’re entering into here. So yeah, it was, it does make me a little nervous. Greg and I are, are very good friends. We were very good friends before taking on this project together. Thankfully, we’re still really good friends. Our families are good friends. Like they, my my son adores Greg’s daughters. If this didn’t work out, we would be disappointing a lot of people.

Greg: 

There’s a lot riding on this book! My

Shelly: 

kid, he would be sitting here like, I miss Edna and Fiona, Why can’t I see them? Well because Greg and I didn’t get along as writing partners! But no, like, I, I, I fortunately know Greg is an exceptional writer, so I wasn’t, I really wasn’t worried that like he wasn’t gonna be able to actually write something. But I don’t want him, I don’t want him to be disappointed in the work that I was doing. I didn’t wanna like miss deadlines. But again, like I think that kept me really focused and really motivated, but like there is, there is a lot of trust that goes into doing this together. And we also were very conscientious in not wanting the other person to feel like they were doing more. So it was, you know, a very equal split in that regard. But yeah, it’s been, it’s, and it’s really fun to get to talk about it with Greg as well. And it’s just, I’m really proud that we did this together.

Greg: 

Yeah. And then we still like each other. I know. It’s amazing. The challenge for me was also making sure that this book felt cohesive. Cuz I think that was my worry going in because Shelly has such a strong voice in the written word that’s, you know, evident in her previous books as well as just all the, the essays and stuff you do around such wonderful programs as the Bachelorette. Um, so I was, I was just a little bit like, hmm, I don’t know. I hope this doesn’t feel like I’m, you know, my voice is completely different and doesn’t mesh. But I was really gratified once we started to see each other’s work on these essays, that it did feel similar. Obviously we’re not 100% the same. We have different, you know, ways of saying things as well as senses of humor and all that. And I think just like the podcast, how we work on, on you asking certain questions that I answer and questions we just kind of gravitate into different things. I think we ended up bringing so much you know, This would be a different book if I was writing it by myself or if you were writing it by yourself and together, it’s, it’s an even better book. And I think it’s because our two voices were able to mesh, which I again, was nervous about, but it ended up working out. I think, anyway. We’ll, we’ll see how it goes when it, when people start to read it.

Courtney: 

Greg, earlier you said that you had always wanted to write a book. So now that you have done so, how are you feeling now? Like, is it something that you enjoyed and you would wanna do again? Is it something that, Okay, I did one book and I’m, I’m feeling good now?

Greg: 

Well I, yeah, I have to thank Shelly. Obviously she had written two beforehand but writing this with her, and I think the format of this actually really helped me because it was about writing kind of discrete essays, right? Like you didn’t necessarily have to think about the entire whole as we were doing, writing the parts of it. And so after we wrote this book I joined a writing group and I have had a fantasy novel in my head for decades. I think it was actually, I got some of the concepts of this when I was still in college, and I’ve been bouncing around writing various notes and things like that. And I’ve written a few chapters, but I’d never took it and ran with it. And the experience of writing this with Shelly has shown to me that like, no, you just gotta do these discreet parts. Like you gotta write this chapter and then this chapter, and then this chapter. And they all flow into each other. And the confidence and experience of writing this, Welcome to Dragon Talk, definitely contributed to me having the finally the discipline I needed to finish and work on this, this fantasy book. So I’m about 60,000 words into that one. And I, yeah, I thank Shelly for, for, you know, giving me the, the working, I don’t know, discipline in order to make that happen.

Shelly: 

it was in you all along Greg

Greg: 

It was, You needed just to unlock it within me though.

Courtney: 

I want so badly now to ask you what your book is about.

Greg: 

I’m not, I don’t know if I’m ready for a full elevator pitch, but it is it’s, you know, many point of views in a fantasy realm. And the political machinations between them.

Courtney: 

Oh my god. That’s like my favorite type of book.

Greg: 

it’s mine too.

Courtney: 

Amazing. Okay. Well, I suppose as we are winding down, even though I really don’t want to I would love to just know if there’s any other upcoming projects that y’all are excited about and allowed to talk about.

Shelly: 

Hmm. I’m excited about my, my D&D club that I’ll be starting. And part of that I’m just, I am really excited about the educational outreach that we are doing and how we’re going to grow that in the future. So any educators listening or any parents that have kids in elementary, middle, or high school? Just, you know, we’re, we’re looking to bring Dungeons and Dragons into your kids’ classroom in a really fun, engaging way that’s going to teach them not just the hard skills like math and reading and writing. It’ll foster a love of those things, but also you’re gonna learn the soft skills, the, the things that are really hard to teach, like empathy, like taking turns, collaboration, lifting each other up the way that we like to do on Dragon Talk. So yes, super excited to see the ways in which we’re going to engage and inspire that next generation of fans.

Greg: 

Yeah. I, I’m excited for all that. I think that the D&D books that are coming out in the years to come are gonna be blowing everyone’s minds, and I can’t wait to, to tell more people about them, as well as the exciting developments within one D&D and getting the word out about that. That’s one thing I’m super excited about for Wizards of the Coast as well as, I mean, the movie that’s coming out, the D&D movie on or among ths next spring is gonna have this huge influx of people. And I’m so excited that Shelly was able to get this kind of you know, youth and education program up and running six months, year before that movie comes out. So there we have a place to point people and that’s gonna be really great to just get more folks playing Dungeon Dragons because I think the problem that we exist with current done D&D players is there’s not enough of us. There’s not enough D&D out there. And we will explain that and get more, you know, dms running games of all ages. Senior centers is our next, our next big thing,

Shelly: 

Don’t laugh,

Greg: 

Gotta get the seniors going. But beyond all that, I, I, I have been working on this book that I’m telling you about. I’m also creating a short film called Ex-Husband. We’re in the final stages of post-production on that, and we’ll be submitting it to festivals like South by Southwest. That deadline is like in four days from now. So we’re, you know, over this weekend gonna be doing a whole bunch of, you know, music and picture lock, all these, you know, fancy you know, film directing terms that I’m learning and, and using, hopefully correctly. So that’s really exciting. I hope we can tell more people about that, where they can see it once it is accepted into festivals. Fingers crossed. I am also a co-host of a podcast called Reengage that goes back to look at all of the Star Trek, The Next Generation episodes, one by one with Fellow Gen Xers. And we talk about what the world was like with current events and what was happening when the episodes first aired. In, right now we’re in 1990, so there’s a lot going on with the fall of the Berlin Wall, as well as the start of the invasion of Kuwait is all happening right now as we’re entering season four of Star Trek, the Next Generation. So look for that episode, or, you know, that podcast if you’re interested in re-engaging with Star Trek. 

I definitely needed to do that around the pandemic to kind of think of a, a happier, more exciting time in my life when I was, you know, nine or 10 years old. And it’s been really great to go back and re-engage with those. And I, yeah, that’s, that’s all. I mean, there’s lots of other things going on, but, you know, I’m really excited about this book coming out and getting the reaction because in, in some ways it’s Welcome to Dragon Talk: a testament to everything that Shelly and I have been working on for the last seven years. Demystifying this game, making the public aware that it is not just the stereotypical D&D player that you might even see in Stranger Things. As much as Stranger Things has been awesome about getting more people into it. You know, there are so many different types of people who play this game now, and they don’t all play it in the basement. They play it everywhere, and they have wonderful, you know, creative endeavors and it kind of spawns creativity. The whole game is about creativity. And so we really want to hopefully have this book both be a record of what we’ve done, inspiring folks, and inspire more people by reading it. Kind of like a mobious strip kind of you know, serpent eating its own tail type of thing. I just love that you’re giggling in the background.

Shelly: 

It’s a beautiful image. beautiful

Courtney: 

It is. It really is. Now, I’m just gonna be thinking about that all day. Oh my gosh. So only a couple things, huh?

Greg: 

Yeah, only a couple things going on.

Courtney: 

Greg, Shelly, if people want to find you guys and keep up with all of the things that are going on, where can they find you?

Shelly: 

You could find me on Twitter or Instagram at Shellymoo. You could also visit my website for those, you know, sometimes I like I get inspired by the Bachelor or Bachelorette and I recap those episodes, but you can find me on my website for more of my, my writing at shellymazzanoble.com

Greg: 

And I am at Greg Tito on Twitter, Greg underscore Tito on Instagram. The Reengage podcast is at Reengage TNG on Twitter. But feel free to search for that anywhere you get fine podcasts. And my production company is called Deadline Productions because I need a deadline in order to make things happen. I don’t have a website yet for that, but look for more information about Ex-Husband film at ExHusbandfilm on both Instagram and Twitter.

Courtney: 

Awesome. Well, thank you both so much for coming on today. And thank you to our listeners. We are doing something a little bit new right after we stop this part of the recording is that for patrons. We are now doing a fun little quick question blitz with Greg and Shelly where it’s just gonna be a bunch of silly questions some are D&D related; some are not. But that will be available exclusively for patrons. But again, thank you guys so much for coming on. This has been such a fun conversation.

Shelly: 

It really has. Thank you so much, Courtney.

Greg: 

This has been great. I love it. I can’t wait for these rapid fire questions. Let’s do it.

 

Thanks for dropping by! We would love to know who would like us to interview, so please drop a comment here on the blog, on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or Discord to let us know who your favorite creators are! If you’d like access to more maps and content, including downloadable PDFs of our adventures, check out our Maps Patreon or Podcast Patreon. We’re able to do what we do because of all our amazing Patrons!

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