Are you aware of the power of words and how they can subtly infiltrate a game? Noordin Ali Kadir unearths this concealed beast in today’s episode, throwing light on how bias can have a profound impact on players. You’ll discover how sensitivity consulting can prevent unintended consequences, ensuring a balanced and fair game design. We discuss his consulting experience and how he combats racial and cultural stereotypes in all of his projects.
Additionally, we dive into the importance of collaboration in editing and how consulting can save game developers time and prevent errors. Noordin stresses the need to choose the right words to fit the narrative, instead of merely filling up the page. Wouldn’t it be fantastic to prevent potential headaches down the line? Noordin insists on the significance of consulting from the start of a project, which not only brings to life a better product but also saves time, money, and heartache. Tune in, as Noordin Ali Kadir takes us on an exciting journey through the world of tabletop gaming, consulting, and career success.
This episode was edited by Sam Atkinson.
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Time Stamps
- 0:02 Introduction & Updates
- 2:15 Noordin Introduction
- 15:07 Unintended Consequences in Game Design
- 21:32 The Importance of Collaboration in Editing
- 25:16 Importance of Consulting a Sensitivity Consultant
- 35:17 Starting Out in Consulting
- 45:11 Challenges and Rewards of Consulting
- 51:24 The Power and Impact of Creativity
- 1:01:09 Where can people find you? 1:05:21 Wrap-up
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Transcript
Courtney:
Hello and welcome to Roll Play Grow, the podcast for tabletop entrepreneurs, creators and fans. In this show, we dig into processes, challenges, tips and really look at how to grow a business in the tabletop role-play gaming space. Sit back and join in as we learn from the creators behind your favorite brands about who they are and how they are turning their passion for gaming into a career. Today’s guest is someone who has worked in so many different aspects of the TTRPG community, including writing, game design, editing, sensitivity consulting and performing in several actual plays Noordin Ali Kadir. Most of our conversation today was centered on Noordin’s consulting work, and he goes into the importance of bringing in a sensitivity consultant from the beginning of a project and how much your sources impact your writing and your games. It was a very insightful conversation and definitely gave me a lot to think about. I know that y’all are going to enjoy this conversation immensely, but before we get into the interview, I have an update for you all on Burnaway. Those of you who have been around for a while may remember that I am the project manager for an upcoming TTRPG called Burnaway. Essentially, the players are a group of mercenaries hired to confront Embergeists, which are spirits that are so upset about something that their ectoplasm combusts. You have to either exercise them or placate them, which is where you find clues in the burning building that you are exploring, to figure out who they are, why they are upset, and convince them to leave. It’s a really fun game, meant for short campaigns that will be coming back to Kickstarter on October 3rd. We did try to fund it back in the spring but due to a lot of factors, it didn’t work out. The first time we have revamped the Kickstarter. We’ve lowered the funding goal and we are very optimistic about funding this time in October. If you are interested in keeping up with the game, you can look for Burnaway on Kickstarter, and I will also have a link to the pre-launch page in the shoutouts we are launching very soon, so be sure to give the campaign a follow to keep up with updates. Alright, this is a longer episode, so we are just going to go ahead and jump right in. Enjoy this conversation with Noordin. Hello friends, I am here with the super talented Noordin Ali Kadir. How’s it going today?
Noordin:
I’m good. I’m good it’s reaching the busy season for me in my real-life day job, so a bit tired but very good I know it sounds like you have a lot going on right now. Yeah, surprisingly not much in the tabletop world, although that’s going to change soon probably. But yeah, in my real world I also do a lot of admin work and I work with tour companies who get very busy in the fall, so I do a lot of scheduling right now.
Courtney:
Oh gosh, yeah, my real job is a project manager and I used to work in theater as a stage manager, oh yeah. Scheduling is like it takes a talent and it’s exhausting and it’s one of those things that you’re like it shouldn’t be this hard, like why is this so hard?
Noordin:
It’s wild how like the sheer amount of just time it takes of you staring at a spreadsheet or whatever your system uses, but it looks like a spreadsheet. It always looks like a spreadsheet. Just staring directly at a spreadsheet, trying to figure out how a person can both be available and you’re completely unavailable at the same time. It’s a miracle, honestly, that anything gets done If you rely upon any person to do your scheduling for you, whether you work like a shift job or you’re getting everyone together for a podcast or something, just thank the person doing your scheduling for me. They’re impressive.
Courtney:
I 100% agree with this. Awesome Well, Noordin, I would love to just hear a little bit about yourself and how you got into gaming.
Noordin:
There’s such a varied answer to this because, to go philosophical, what is gaming really? When we played hopscotch, was that tabletop game when we were on a blacktop? Is a blacktop a table? No, I got into tabletop gaming because I just love improvisation, I love storytelling and I love creation my three favorite things, even though I’ve got tons of little backgrounds, an actor and stuff. The real reason why I got into tabletop was just because I wanted to inhabit a world. I wanted to create someone who would inhabit a world. I wanted to play around with their story and play around with the world and build things. Build a world creatively with people. It took me a while, though, because, as a guy of my ethnic background and queer history, it is difficult to find someplace where you feel safe enough to be your whole self in tabletop. I’m still discovering things when I started, but it is difficult. I started reading books reading tabletop gaming books well before I ever started playing them, which is a very different process than how most people do it. I found my very first tabletop game. The first role-playing game mode considered tabletop game, was a D&D 5e game A couple of years before the pandemic. I think it was 2017, 2016. Since then, well, as you can probably tell, I haven’t stopped so clearly. I’ve been enjoying it.
Courtney:
It’s funny, you say 2016, 2017, and I’m like oh that’s kind of similar to when I started playing tabletop games. That feels like such a long time ago and yet it really isn’t that long.
Noordin:
The more I think about it, the more 2016 makes more sense. But yeah, it isn’t that long, and I think a lot of people are in that position where, when they started to play, it was after the big critical role-boom. Once D&D 5e started getting played at regular tables more consistently, you could find open games a lot more easily because people were inspired by something like a critical role. But a couple of years after that, because it’s always first you have that internal boom and then you have the external boom, and I come with the external boom crowd. The funny thing is, though, when it comes to reading my World of Darkness books, I started reading those more than a decade before. That is a gap. I will say that You’re also right. It is a long time. It’s longer than we think it is, and I think the pandemic has really screwed up with time.
Courtney:
Yeah, I was thinking back like okay, what was I? Doing back in 2016? Like oh, wow, yeah, that was like the beginning of the end times, that felt. But Right. So I’m curious about how the transition happened of you. I mean, you were reading these books, you were reading World of Darkness a very long time ago, it feels like. But then how did you convince some friends to play with you? Or did you walk into a game store and just say I want to play. How did that actually happen?
Noordin:
So I did the thing that a lot of Canadians in my area do. I went on meetupcom because I got desperate and I clicked a button and I gave it a shot and it was a drop-in-dropout game, a drop-in-dropout D&D game. I believe it was based on Tales of the Ony Portal, or at least it was just about it, just switched over to that. So I was in like the last game before then and then we switched over and I played a half-drow named Traven and it really was just. I made the decision for myself that I wanted to do it and I was going to do it and so I did it. And I’m not going to say it was the best game in my life, and I don’t think most of my first games were the best games in my life. The second game I ever played after that like one session of that D&D game which I returned to. Then I played a game of 10 candles, which is wild, and then I played a different game of D&D, like a campaign that ended my relationship with that game was awful. It was real like I had one of the worst experiences ever, but I got through that through Discord, so it was really just like I tossed a bunch of darts at a wall and I hoped one would stick, and eventually they did. I go here. God, how that didn’t happen.
Courtney:
Well, now I’m going to make you figure out. How did that even happen?
Noordin:
I think it’s because when I first hung around, there was the series of one shots being played of different, different indie games, which got me more interested in indie right from the beginning, because I realized I was playing more with the type of people that I wanted to, rather than, you know, drop and drop out D&D game, which is more like not really adventurous league, but kind of like adventurous league. Right, you stick to a certain set of rules, the story is very structured and you delve into it. The indie games were more world building, they were more intriguing and the more it got into that crowd, the more realized this is what I wanted. This is what I wanted. So I started volunteering, you know, for my local gaming convention. I ended up going to getting lucky enough to volunteer at a couple other conventions in other cities, including like GenCon. You know I volunteered for Magpie, I think in 2017 or 2018, one of the two and at that point now I was getting really invested and this was before I really made contact. I had technically contacts in the games industry, but I didn’t utilize them. I didn’t ever realize that I was going to want to create things, but eventually I created, I homebrewed a playbook for one of my favorite games, Urban Shadows, back in the day, based upon the gin which I the stories I grew up with. I called it the Concealed, and it was about. Every single playbook has their core. It’s not just a creature, it’s a story, right? And the story of the Concealed playbook was just about displacement and being separated from any kind of consistent community, right. It was about being in a world in which you do not belong but you are forced to pretend you do. So it was very similar to already like the other Urban Shadows playbooks, but it was different in some way because there was sort of an active nature in making sure you keep up that masquerade, because if you didn’t, you are something new and unique. People will use that and take advantage of you, and there are certain moves I gave it that allowed it to, and then it realized oh, I can create things, Although I never published it and don’t think I ever will. That is when the Domino’s really started to lead me to where I am now, someone who does not just play tabletop games, performs in them in actual plays and podcasts and writes for them and consults for them and helps design them. It was just like a series of Domino’s leading up to this moment that all culminated into me being here and I think, most recently, the things people probably know me the most from right now are from the podcasts Missing Any Lee and the Atomless. The Atomless is a Starfinder podcast that’s still active and, you know, ready for juncture, blow in the backward hall writing for into the motherlands and, I think, most recently, being this in one of the sensitivity consultants for where will the apocalypse, fifth edition, which is a weird circle. It’s one of those things where the moment you like really invest in something is the moment you realize Okay, I can keep on going and see where this road leads. I can go down the Ellabrick Road or I can stop, and I never chose to stop at any point. I just kept going and I guess I’m here now.
Courtney:
Just looking at all of the projects that you’ve worked on, like it’s so impressive and I’ve just been it interesting like how you’ve touched on so many different parts of the process of all these projects where it’s like you’ve designed, you’ve written your own things, like you Consult with sensitivity, consult, consultations, editing, you’re out all these podcasts, all of these actual plays.
Noordin:
I. So I come way back when I came from the theater world where, if you’ve ever done a theater class in a place that is not a conservatory, you know that you’re not just the actors, that’s not a thing. You’re also doing the production, you’re doing the set design, you’re doing the stage management. You’re learning every single piece of this big machine and I have Been in that mindset ever since. I kind of decided I’m going to create in TTRBG’s and not just enjoy them, because I like to know as much as possible about a thing. It you learn a lot from approaching the same thing from different angles, because what you do in an actual play or even a podcast, those are different from what how a person plays at home. Even if you’re not like intentionally playing to an audience, you are aware of an audience, right, if you are writing something well now you know that this is different than writing for a book. Or, you know, writing an essay, because you’re creating something that’s intended to be built on later. It has to have enough Open endings that someone can make something from it and feel like they are doing something, because that’s important. But also it’s got to have a complete enough narrative that someone can drop it in at the drop of the hat and it’ll be somewhat recognizable. You know, an editor learns how much extraneous information is out there what is useful, what is not, and sometimes having something that’s not useful is Still a good thing. It provides flavor. Sometimes it isn’t right. Consulting teaches you a lot about the real-life consequences of what art is, and you may not like the concept of tabletop games being art. The truth is, anything created by human hands with the intention to entertain is a form of art. It’s an art form. All art has consequences because all art is inherently political, because all art affects the minds of the people who use it, not, like, in a mind control way, but in a it makes you think and if something makes you think, it affects your mind. The realities of consulting like teach you a lot about how things can be misused in ways that you do not expect and how things can echo in the you know from the real world in ways that you did not intend and the way that goes directly counter to your game design. It’s actually one of the most interesting things about consulting in general. A lot of people regarded, as you know, trying to not cause harm, and this is true. This is the thing we obviously we don’t want to do that, but if I Create a pathway down the road and I intend for you to take each path relatively equally, but one path has a bias that corresponds to human activity. Ie, I Depict the goblins and I want some good goblins and some bad goblins, but the goblins in the real world Right, or the stories we tell about goblins, often veer towards the evil. You’re more likely to pick the evil. There’s an inherent bias there that goes directly counter to what I need for my game design. To make the goblins work in this supposed game, I need you to pick both relatively the same amount, so I cannot just write them equally. I’ve got a favor the good a little bit more to get that 5050 split consulting teaches you just how common human biases in that kind of situation and how that can have, yes, human side effects. You can hurt people, but also it can really affect your game design. If you’re not careful, you will get Circumstances that you did not intend and I think you know. Funnily enough, we’re gonna talk world of darkness for a split second. Keep in mind I’ve talked with the brand team paradox. I am under an NDA. However, while some of the writing from the those 90s books is Rough and some of it leads into racial stereotypes and cultural stereotypes and queer stereotypes and sexist stereotypes the whole list the truth is it was exacerbated by a community that you know. Double down on some of those stereotypes. That’s not to say all of that community did. There was, you know, pockets. The world of darkness is well known for having a very diverse background of enjoyers. However, the bias does tend to lead to the worst interpretations of some of these people. So if they’re based upon real people, you end up creating a sort of cyclical thing where you’re not gonna get what you want out of this supposed representation. You’re only gonna get the worst version if you’re not careful, which is led to unintended consequences. Right, and if you will support your community. Usually, like you take what they have taken from your material and you canonize it or you make it cool. But if you do that and there’s real human bias in there, what you can do is accidentally just make more racism, and that’s happened not just in the world of darkness but in, like several things where the community feedback is accidentally pushed something into a worse place Because you know there’s bias there and there was no consultants there to say hold on, stop the train for a second. What does this do to our game? What does this mean about a kid? What does this say about the game itself, because it isn’t always equal. Yeah, consultants taught me a lot. Basically and I’m going on consultants taught me a lot about the unintended consequences, and how can that? That can really affect how your games played in the real world consistently is, which isn’t really cool, really scary, but really cool.
Courtney:
I would I talk about like the ideal scenario and then maybe like the more common scenario. So the ideal scenario like at what point are you brought into the project to do this?
Noordin:
consult like consultation the ideal dream scenario is, you know when, when the flare gun is shot into the air and the flags fall, at the moment someone presses go, because, while it’s still that very Loosely formatted experience, I can start placing the the warning flags down. I can start saying, okay, this is a cool idea, this is where it can go off. So if we push towards this, it won’t right. So, for example, you come to me and you say I want to make a game in which we all play really cool kinds of goblins. I’m like cool, that’s actually really cool. Absolutely everyone plays a goblin. However, it’s worth noted that, worth noting that goblins can fall into like anti-semitic archetypes quite frequently. So here’s how we avoid this. We avoid this by not making them necessarily greed mongers, nor do we make them the underpinnings of the society that you know constantly lead them straight. We don’t make them the ruiners of a nation. We avoid those two things. We’re probably gonna end up on the better side of this right. Then, as the project goes along, I could help you check, I could check in, you know, and we can find out if, as the game develops and grows, where are the pain points, because maybe you’re like, okay, cool, maybe the goblins are all being mind affected on the low-key level, right just underneath their brains. There’s something affecting them and that’s a core part of this game very cool. However, now we’re talking about player agency and we’re talking about the depiction of how mental illness can be depicted in certain games. So how do we correspond with that? Well, one, we give options in the book for how this mind control can cause A goblin to react and we tell the players that, when overly affected by the whatever this is, these are the options you can take. So we pass the narrative control back in their hands, even if we limit their choices. So they still feel like there’s some control and they can. If they really don’t want an outcome, they can find ways to shift it to a different one. In addition to that, we make it clear that this is not some sort of mental illness. Right, we don’t use words like crazed or Mad, and instead we focus on what it is. So if it’s a voice, we can call it that, we can say the whispers of the brain or what have you, and we push it into this entity realm instead of a Actually, these are all mentally ill realm, as we continue to do. So we can say that we’re not going to be able to do anything about it. Actually, these are all mentally ill realm. As we continue on, eventually it’s the end and then I do a final read and at this point, if I’ve been involved in the project, what I’m clearing up is like word choices, some spelling mistakes. I’m an editor. I cannot help it. If you have me consulting on your project and people who’ve had music consultant they will know this sometimes I just do a spell check to I have to. But you’ll like I’ll clean up words like maybe you have an off-handed reference to Like a type of knife that’s used in actual ritualistic practices today. I’ll be like maybe don’t do that, because that references human culture and these are goblins and we’re only referencing this once, so we Don’t necessarily need it right now. You don’t need this right. Like. You have a curious dagger Cool, but do we really need that? Or can we call it like a river wave dagger instead, because a curious dagger has a specific purpose. If all is well, that’s easy. That part of the job even going through a whole book Takes a couple hours max. I bang it out. It’s really simple stuff. I don’t have to like say all this whole thing needs fixed. It’s fixing. This whole paragraph needs fixing, because by that time we’ve already, like, developed a culture of that best case scenario. Overall, you’re, we’re all saving time here, right? The worst case scenario is I’m brought in right at the end Often and this has happened in one case during the layout process. By the way, there’s been some debate about this on the online once in a while. Please don’t make your writers write in layout Right first, then put it into layout. That is what layout is for, because I know this seems cruel or it may seem like a direct, like a sub to. It’s not. I’ve seen it happen a couple of times across games, cross companies and I’ve been brought in to fix things as they have been in the layout. It is a nightmare, because now I’m very limited in word count. I cannot get rid of too much, so if there’s a whole paragraph of something wrong, I cannot just remove it. I can’t take it out wholesale and say, well, honestly, you’ve never needed it in the first place, even if you didn’t, because now there’s a big old gap on the page and something’s got to fill it and you’re not hiring me as a writer, so either I’m doing something that is not my job or I’m trusting you to fix it without any guidance, because I don’t have any guidance for a paragraph that was never needed Right, even the more macro, like I’ve got to pick word changes. If there’s a word that needs changing or phrase that needs changing, I’ve got to pick something that’s roughly the same in letters. It can get really, really annoying and on the writer side, how much belongs on a page is a thing that has tortured every writer’s brain from the dawn of time. Please don’t make us do that the day of, because then we’re trying to make word choices that correspond to how well it fits in a page and not necessarily how it fits with the narrative of what we’re trying to accomplish or with the game, and that means sometimes we’re picking the worst words because they’re the ones with the right letters. It’s a layout is a different job. It’s just a different job to put it later. But yeah, that’s the worst case scenario and at that point, yes, the layout is already stressful. But also, if no consultant’s been involved and I’m not been involved, I have no idea what your references are, because in the beginning we talked about that goblin game and you listed some references. I don’t know what they were, but you listed some great references and some heavy references and I’m like I can double check these and see where they went wrong. I can use that to inform. By the time we’ve gotten to this part. We’re reaching the end. No consultant’s been involved and maybe you’ve had several writers on your project. Who’s to know what all of their references are, what your references are? So I’m doing this from scratch and there may be huge parts that could delve into very dangerous territory or does not engender the gameplay you want, because, let’s say, we have that sort of the voices towards ruin right, that concept underneath the goblin’s brain. There are voices towards ruin In general, they’re cursed with this, whatever. Also, curses are dangerous. Ignore this, I’m doing this on the fly, but we settle on that. Let’s say that you wrote it without my consultation. It’s quite possible you might call it the underlying madness. And now suddenly you have accidentally caused your player base to try and portray mad mental illness in a way that you did not want, did not intend and is now massively much harder to fix, because I can change the name and, depending upon what words you used in the paragraphs, you may need a wholesale rewrite and that, to be clear, that has happened. I’ve absolutely and I’m not going to declare who one of the biggest things as a consultant, I kind of take my job seriously, whether there’s an NDA or not. I don’t talk about specific things have changed or not changed for a reason Because I’m not in the business of trying to make people look bad and I’m not in the business of trying to make people look good. I don’t really advertise for projects I consult on either. I just do the work and then I walk away and I get paid for it, because, ultimately, it is very condensed to my job. That protects me and it protects you. In any case, though, I have absolutely, in a couple of cases, gone back and said so this whole page, this whole section, is not just deeply problematic, but will cause some inherent problems in the way this is portrayed in your game. Is this something you want? Because if it is, then we need to have a talk about how to do it safer, and if it’s not, then you’re going to have to do a wholesale rewrite, and I can give you guidelines, I can tell you what words to avoid, but we both know that now we’re racing towards publication. We’re near in the end, deadline’s coming up. I do this. The writing is not going to be as good, the rewrite is not going to be as impactful, whatever it was, because ultimately I’m telling you to rush something because you made a mistake that you didn’t need to make to begin with. That’s, I think, the biggest thing about not getting a variety of consultants from the get-go, or not getting a consultant from the get-go Even at a generic sensitivity consultant who is at least aware of multiple different issues in multiple different communities, because ultimately it doesn’t just make more work for me on the back end, it makes more work for you too. To correct things makes more work for you. To that degree, it also means that you may have to get rid of something, rebrand something. You may have to rip up the first print you made. I don’t want to have to make you do that. I don’t want to even have to suggest that you do that, especially because I know the chance of some of that happening is practically nil. Anyways, I’d prefer it mostly done by the time I get there or I’d be there throughout, so that we’re not in this position where we are trying to rush fix something or we are trying to dramatically change something at the 11th hour. It isn’t good for the product, for the company, for me it’s just not good. I can do it, I’ve done it. Most of my projects are like that, to be honest, not in layout, thank God, but just before. Most of what I’ve done is in that era. However, no matter how good I am at finding the word, choice, replacements, making recommendations, doing rewrites, believe it or not, there are times where you’ve read my writing in the words of someone else, because I try to match their style as much as possible, because I know it’s a sentence, and at that point I might as well just push it out there. No matter what, it’s not going to be as seamless as it would have been had I been involved from the beginning or had a sensitivity consultant or any consultant been involved from the beginning. If this was handled sensitively from the get-go, it would, overall, be a better product. No matter how good I fix it, it’s not fun for anyone.
Courtney:
Yeah, it is a lot of work to do and I feel like a lot of headaches for a lot of people.
Noordin:
Yeah, I apologize, by the way, for going on, it’s just a lot. It’s a lot of stuff.
Courtney:
Oh please. I have so many follow-up questions I’m deciding which one to ask, okay, so I’m actually probably going to be a little selfish in this question. So let’s say that you’re working on a project, I don’t know, maybe as a project manager in my case and you need to find a sensitivity consultant, but you’re not sure of what area to have that person specializing in, because I know obviously if you’re writing about different cultures, you want to find someone that is going to be able to consult on those specific cultures, but if it’s more of a generic thing, then it’s like how do you decide what kind of consultant you’re looking for?
Noordin:
Well, I mean, the first thing is you can pitch it to several and you can see who responds. I am a person who, thanks to having a very diasporic background, I’m connected to several different cultures, all of which I know because they are my own too or they’re very closely related to me or I have a literal family member I can call up. People often ask how do you know so much about, like you know, hinduism? I’m like there are people who have been practicing Hinduism in my family as they’re technically family friends, but they are family to me, as in. I can go to their house tomorrow and cry and they will pat me better and feed me for three weeks. They’re in London so that would be hard, but I could for literally several generations and they have taught me things in their own personal experience. They have partially raised me right, so you can talk to someone for all you know. They might check all your boxes, but the more likely scenario is you come to someone like me and you’re like there’s a whole list of stuff in here. There’s a whole lot of references. I’m not even sure where I could be going wrong. I just know that I want to cover my bases. Usually at that point, someone like me breath or no breath will look over it and will be able to pinpoint where they are lacking, if they are lacking, and so they’ll say, okay, I can cover you generically, I can cover the basic beats and I can direct you to this, this and this person, or I. In some cases, some consultants work as a group, like if you ever worked with Leon and Maple Consulting, who also worked on Werewolf, it’s not just Leona, it’s a couple other people who work with Leona in ways that support her and in ways that at times they’re doing fantastic work on their own to make sure that all the gaps are covered. So you could find that you’re talking to a conglomerate, you could find that you’re talking to someone like me and if I’m lacking there are times in which I am I will direct you to people or I will say, if you’d like, I can get their names and you can credit them, or they can decide if they want to be credited and I’ll conduct that. I’ll ask the outrageous questions. There’s a few cases, very niche cases, in which it is very generic stuff. It’s more like a generic sensitivity, more like am I hurting anyone here or am I being ableist here Because I’m a disabled person. So I tend to see where accessibility issues go wrong and in those cases if there’s like a really niche thing, I might just ask my phone a friend if I’m like concerned about something. So if there’s some anti-Semitism that I’m suspecting, I’m not Jewish, I have very little connection to Judaism, I mean culturally, religiously, islam, complicated situation but I have friends I can call up and I will, and I’ll be like okay, I’m suspecting this, how does this read to you? And once you know, I’ll get an answer back from them. I’ll have an answer for you. Honestly, consultants in general, none of us work alone and none of us don’t know someone else. So shoot your shot, talk to me, talk to you know a consulting industry, and we’ll get back to you with the best course of action. We are not afraid to call and help. That’s not something we’re afraid to do. And if it comes down to it, it’s not like you’re going to pay more in money overall. Because if I’m saying you’re like we’re getting 10 hours of consulting and I say I’m going to take eight and I’m going to give two to this one over here, whoever this person is, well, it works out the same for you. You’re just putting an extra name in the credit sheet or you’re referencing an extra name, you know, on your website. It’s not much work at all. The basic goal I would say is just have an idea of where you think you might go wrong, define where your biggest fears are and have that ready as part of your like pitch of what this is, because that’ll help someone like me pinpoint better, which is always handy.
Courtney:
I think that makes a lot of sense and like, okay, can I be talking to you about it, this recording. But to get back into just some of the things that I’d love to know is like how you like actually got started in this consultation. You know like at what point, because I know you were. I think you said earlier that your first dabbling was like with writing yourself and then it didn’t get published. And then at some point you got into publishing and you know, at some point all these things started, all these things like start.
Noordin:
Consulting was very much a. I have multiple backgrounds. Someone called me in because they knew I had the right backgrounds and I was interested. Thinking about consult, doing some consulting work was we were all low on funds at some point in our life and I said, okay, I’ll do my best. And then that one credit was on and that one credit was all I needed to talk to other people in the industry, get their support and, overall, build from there. That said, technically speaking, it did start earlier and that was thanks to the Asians representing over on their YouTube channel. They streamed it actually, so you’ll find on Twitch too, but on their YouTube channel you’ll find, like the Asians read sort of collection of videos. There was one called critical read, al-qadim critical read, of course, because it’s not just Asians in that case, there’s also some North African representation, because Al-Qadim is Swana, it’s Southwest Asian, north African in essence and it gathered a bunch of us together to talk about this very old book D&D made and where it not only went wrong but where it could have been much cooler had they had the right people to let them know how it could be cool. In addition to that, I helped, we did. It was a bit of a like a joke, but we did Kindred of the East, which was objectively bad. No one thinks that was a good book for one episode and I’ve been on their YouTube channel and their streams a couple of times here and there. I used to moderate for them as well, which is how I have an any. Out of all the things to have an any for. I’m very proud of that. I helped moderate their Discord, their Twitch. I was part of the team and thus when they were not, they won an any. I also received an any. I have a medal. It sits beside me. I’ve never worn it out, but that taught me alone how to critically examine a piece of text, not only from my cultural backgrounds, but also from a greater. How is this fun? How is this playable? How is this made interesting? Narrative that helped me like really define how my consulting works. If it wasn’t for that, I don’t know if I would have gotten to like truly written word consulting at all, and I owe a lot to the Fox stations represent. They mean a lot to me.
Courtney:
I think that’s really cool, that I really did get started with. Someone approached you to say like hey, you know, can you take a look at this? And that it was just took one credit. And then, like you’re able to have that, like standing to say hey, I’ve done this before, Like let me help you.
Noordin:
Yeah, yeah, it’s always been a learning process. I’ll definitely say that from the get go. One credit is not enough to teach you everything you need to know, but it is enough to like to walk yourself in a door and realize is this something that you can stand doing for a long period of time or not? Because I’m not going to lie, no matter what that first credit is, it could be, I’ve done everything from like a game about hamsters Well, actually I was an adventure about hamsters, but still to you know some some really tough stuff. Where Wolf was tough and I freely admitted that In fact the team knows that I had it it was going to be tough. I said that when they first hired me. Like this is going to be tough. I’ve done the whole range. No matter what it is, you’re going to learn a lot about your capabilities and if you’re comfortable growing those capabilities or if you’re comfortable stopping and that’s the most important thing I’d recommend working alongside another consultant if you ever have the opportunity. I wish there was more ways for like consultants to work in tandem on a project so you could teach someone as they make choices right and help support them in finding their best voice, to voice concerns and to voice feedback and to develop their own style. If you have someone like me, my consulting always comes from a place of play, so I’m always thinking about okay, how can I make this playable to the most amount of people? Because I think that’s a core concept of most games, especially if forgive me, if you want to sell your game, you want to have a big player base. How can we do that without necessarily changing the narrative of what this is? What can we do to encourage people who maybe wouldn’t necessarily engage with this content before, to feel like they could be supported by it? And thus I do a lot of research in my spare time. There was a time recently where I was looking up a bunch of things that could spin webs for our project, and I learned a lot. So many things can spin webs because spiders are a common trigger for a lot of people, right? So, okay, you want something that spins webs and maybe it’s a spider cannon base. It’s a spider. Can we suggest other things, other things for your table to take it, so that we don’t necessarily have to use a spider? They could use a mollusk If it’s using its webs to attach itself to something like a big old trap. It could be a mollusk, it could be a muscle, right. But if it’s like trying to cocoon itself, protect itself with its webs, then you’re maybe looking like a silkworm. It’s tons of stuff you can do. It’s fun. That’s the weirdest, most specific example I’ve ever given in my life, but that’s the point, right. My style involves a lot of trying to make things as playable as possible and really representing the kind of supportive play I want to see more. We all have styles as consultants, all individual, unique styles. They’re beautiful things, but I do wish I had more support and that one credit, though it got me through the door and this is like the beginning of the industry really. The one credit if I had a bit more support during that one credit, if I felt more supported during that one credit by having someone there who I could bounce off of the entire time I don’t know, maybe it would have been a bit easier for me to completely transition that over. But I’m not in a hurry to deal with it, don’t get me wrong. Clearly, the doors have opened, but it was tough going in the beginning. I didn’t know if I could really do this. Took me a while to accept that I could Took me more than one credit to do that.
Courtney:
I think that totally makes sense. It’s always hard when you’re doing something new and there’s that whole imposter syndrome on, like I think I know what I’m doing, but do I really? I know that that is definitely a struggle.
Noordin:
Yeah, what is actually useful information? What is not? How do I say this? I think I need to say this how do I say this? That’s a question that I had a lot starting up, and your answer differs, by the way, depending upon what consultant you work with. To be honest, we all phrase things differently. But how do I say this Is a question that I feel like we should have more support to new consultants. To give that answer to Right, you can’t. Unfortunately, this is it’s a job. You can’t just say you fucked up, fix it. That’s not enough. No one can do anything with that, and it’s not. It doesn’t put people in the right position to listen. So my suggestion is always okay, what is the situation? Offer a resolution right off the get. Go and talk about why the resolution would support their version of play a little bit better than what they had initially. Because, yes, it’s, it could be harmful, and you should say that it’s harmful, but ultimately they’re making a game. So phrase things in a way that a game creator would understand, that a game master would understand, because that’s immediately going to get them understanding what you’re trying to say a lot quicker than just going down a history path. Don’t get me wrong. I love history. I’m a history nerd. I work in history courses in actual university. I look it up on my spare time. There’s a lot of folks who, if you just inundate them with detail, it’s going to overwhelm them rather than encourage them to listen. And part of a consultant’s job, as tough as it is, is to encourage people to listen and to speak to them on their level, not necessarily on the level you want them to be.
Courtney:
Hey, entrepreneurs, I love introducing you to new creators every episode, but I could really use your support. I would love to invite you to join our Patreon page, where you’ll gain access to behind the scenes content. Add your questions to upcoming interviews and you could even receive a shout out on our site in an upcoming episode. To learn more, go to lightheartadventurescom. Slash RPG. And now back to the show. What advice would you have for someone that is newer to consulting and they are working with us game designer and the designer is just being really resistant to what they’re saying.
Noordin:
Okay so far. How have you phrased things? Is it worth trying to do it a different way? This is my secret. If you’ve worked with me before, close your ears. You don’t need to hear this. Tell them about how this is gonna affect their bottom line. Be blunt about it, legitimately. I’ve worked with big companies, so, and I’ve worked with smaller companies too, who want to be bigger Financially. If you tell them this is bad for your brand and you explain why, it may reach the right people a little bit more, because even if the game designer themselves is really conducive to your feedback, if there’s a producer involved, that isn’t that’s how you convince them, because you’re not necessarily talking to the person who’s gonna make the edits to begin with. Sometimes you’re talking just to a creative, if that’s proving difficult. If you’re going up all these steps and they just like I don’t really want that’s core, that’s core Legitimately. It seems like a waste, but it’s more worth in the long run. Seith, I’m happy to return your cash. Please take my name off the project and walk away, because sometimes it sucks, but sometimes it’s genuinely not worth your sanity, and I say that very firmly. It’s not worth your sanity for a couple hundred dollars. Don’t get me wrong. I know what it’s like to desperately need that in your wallet. I’ve lived it and some days I still do. It’s still not worth your peace of mind, your sanity, and not worth the effect that has on your overall ability to continue down the path, because if someone is not going to listen to you, sometimes the only thing that will shake them awake is the reality that eventually you will stop supporting them. You will walk away, and no money is worth that that might get them to listen. And even if it doesn’t, at least it’s no longer your fault, because ultimately and this is the thing that I’ve said to, I’m saying it to myself too no matter what a game releases, as no matter how much hard work you put into it, no matter what you try to say, ultimately it is not your responsibility at all. If they put out a game that is harmful, that’s not your responsibility. If they put out a game that didn’t listen to you, not your responsibility. If they put out a game that they did listen to you sometimes didn’t other times. Now they’re getting called out for not your responsibility, it’s not. You did the best you could. Now you’re done. Walk away, because ultimately speaking, and this is the suckiest bit. This is the reason why I don’t often love consulting, even when I do it. You’re not the creative here, and sometimes people create bad things. Truth be told, the vast majority of art in the world that has ever been created has been bad to some degree or another. It’s normal. The reason why we don’t talk about them much is because a lot of that bad artwork doesn’t survive to this day. But most art is bad or average or middling. It is not your responsibility to make them better at their art form, especially if they will not listen. It is not your responsibility to fix everything for them. You are not their patron nor their parent. You are just an employee contractor. Do your work. Do your work to the best of your ability if you can, and then set it aside, because ultimately that’s all you can do.
Courtney:
That is such good advice but also going to be very hard to hear for.
Noordin:
Oh, it’s hard to hear from me. Do you know how many times I’ve read something and been like I could have done that better? Maybe if I said it like this, maybe if I worded it like this, maybe if I impressed upon them. It’s so easy to get in your head, but you’re not the one making the final marks, you’re just not. So ultimately it ain’t on you and it sucks, man, I don’t know. Maybe I think a lot of creatives in general, they have some level of desire to control, and I think that’s where it comes from, not in a bad way, but I wish I could control this so I could make it work right. But the truth is, if you could, then it’d be your project mate, not theirs. You wouldn’t be the one being paid to consult this. You’d be hiring a consultant. Your job’s different.
Courtney:
Honestly, that’s so applicable to so many different parts of being involved in a project. Oh yeah, if you’re not the main person in charge, it doesn’t really matter what part of it is that you’re doing. I think this is good advice that we should all be taking to heart.
Noordin:
The nature of capitalism and the gig economy is ultimately yeah, but it is not just about consulting. If you’re writing down something and your writing is changed, it ain’t on you. It’s not your fault. If you’re in a project and accidentally during the project, a hose breaks, but you weren’t responsible for the hose like we’re talking like a physical machinery thing and you weren’t responsible for the maintenance of the project or the surveying of that hose, it ain’t on you. If you were responsible for the surveying of that hose and you told them the hose needs replacing and they didn’t change it, it ain’t on you. It sucks, god it sucks. But yeah, it’s applicable for practically anything. That doesn’t mean pass the buck. Please don’t do that. Please don’t be like nothing’s my responsibility, nothing. I’m free. If you tried and it still didn’t work out, then it ain’t on you. You do got to do the try bit, though that is part of the job. If you do your job and you did try to fix it and it couldn’t work for circumstances out of control, it’s out of your control. I feel like I’m telling you something that you needed to hear right now. I don’t blame you for that.
Courtney:
I mean, I think we all need to hear it. It is what it is. Yeah, like all right, well, I know what my soundbites going to be. Okay, well, gosh, I know we haven’t really had a chance to dig into some of the other stuff that you’ve really worked on as much, which means that, frankly, I’m just going to have to bring you back later to talk about all of your actual plays.
Noordin:
Of course, of course.
Courtney:
I think we’ve definitely touched on what some of the challenges are with being a consultant, but I do want to also just take a moment to reflect on what it is that you love about the work that you do. What, would you say, is some of the more rewarding parts of this?
Noordin:
Oh yeah, I’m going to speak in both general terms and specific terms. One of the specific terms of it is part of being a consultant is knowing that you fix something. Only you and the people who saw your notes will ever know that it was you. But there is something really proudful when you’re like I looked at the mountain, I said move, and it did. It’s a bit sadistic, sure, but it’s really satisfying because you made a mountain move. Absorb that, Take it in. I like to do that, Even if I’m, at the end of the day, I’m not a huge fan of the result or I could have done that better. I always try to remember where did I make the mountain move, Especially if it was tough. Where did I make the mountain move? Because it reminds you what you’re doing this for. You’re doing this because you can make a mountain move. In the writer’s sense, one of the most satisfying things is honestly, just growing. Junksha Blund, the banquet hall. The first thing I wrote was of Cheyenne Sikabab, which was a scenario for Junksha, which, by the way, if you’re wondering why it was never on the Kickstarter, that’s because I was hired after the Kickstarter. There was a debate not a debate, not like internal debate but there was. We didn’t know if I was actually going to make it into the printed book on time. I did, thank goodness, just hit the wire, but we didn’t know for certain. When I look on back on that project, there’s a lot of things I like about it. There are some things where I I was like I soften that too much. I would have gotten harder right. Or like I would have fixed this part, I would have rewritten this part to evoke something a bit more sincere, right, and I have that with every project I’ve worked on now, and that’s one of the. You see yourself grow in real time. Not because your former work is bad. I don’t think of that as bad. Any work I’ve done is truly awful, but I do think of it as ah, here’s a risk I wanted to take that I didn’t. Or here’s how I’d phrase this now to better evoke what I’m feeling. Or here this is where I could have cut this sentence and put the sentence I really wanted to put in instead. This wasn’t as necessary as I thought it was. You learn a lot from your previous works, which is funny. I don’t like watching my actual plays as much or listening to my voice as much, but I do love reading my own writing and editing it as I grow. The other thing is you created something and you put it on a piece of paper and other people are going to use it and build off of it. It’s going to mean something to them, right? I was a young kid and I read these World of Darkness books in my room alone not really in my room alone. Often I read them in libraries. I did not have the money In a few places where you could find them in libraries harder now, but also, like you know, online resources eventually, Legally, of course, I read them in. Some parts of them meant something to me. I thought this was cool, this was applicable. Mage is one of the coolest things I’ve ever seen because it really is just hey, this is a game in which you were constantly negotiating with your GM about how much power you should be able to wield with just the spheres you have in hand. Really cool stuff. There’s some nifty concepts, and all of that stuff has meant something to me as both a designer, a writer, but also just as someone who likes playing with their imagination. It meant something to me. I’ve built off of those things. I’ve not just played in an actual play in front of you. I’ve also had that inspire my actual, real-life work, and not just actual play stuff or tabletop stuff, but your fiction books, comic books, non-fiction All of that has meant something to me. It’s inspired me. Some other person, whoever wrote those various little bits and pieces, should feel very proud because they inspired a me to do stuff. Likewise, if you’ve written anything, you should feel very proud if it’s in full public view because you inspired someone to do something with it. I guarantee you there’s at least one out there. Think about it for a second. How many times does your scribbling affect even one person to their very core? Can you say that regularly? No, probably not, but you’ve done that. Damn, that’s impressive. Also, it’s just fun. It’s rewarding because it’s fun. It’s fun to play with your imagination. I wish more people did it. We have such great imaginations as human beings. Take advantage of it.
Courtney:
It puts me in mind of the concept of every time traveling story out there. It’s that whole. If you go back in time, you have to be careful that you don’t affect the timeline. It’s like we put so much emphasis on someone from the future is impacting the timeline but we never put any emphasis on we can affect the future just as we are right now.
Noordin:
All human beings do that. This is important to mention. I practice a religion and I have faith. What that means, maybe not the place for it, but one of the core concepts of how I express my faith. This is not necessarily all Muslims, it’s just me, not just me, but it’s core to me is that we, as human beings, were given the power to have free will. There’s some debate about that, actually, amongst some Sufis and some others in the faith. If it was given to us or if we chose it. Whatever the case, we have free will. We can shape the earth in ways that very few other creatures can, and we can do so intelligently and consistently and in ways against our very nature. We could shape the world too ill if we wanted to intentionally, and some do. That is an immense responsibility and that means, no matter how small you are, you are shaping the world around you. I’d say that, knowing that there’s some person who’s probably listened to this, who mostly works as a burger flipper and keep in mind I’ve worked at a Licks home burgers and flipped burgers. That has been a thing I’ve done. I’m not affecting the world, but you are. You are. Something you have said has likely resonated with somebody else and that person has used that in their daily practice and, who knows, maybe they’ll pass it on and eventually goes up the chain. We all have an effect. That’s the core truth of the matter. Some people might have a greater effect because of privilege, because of circumstance, but that doesn’t mean that even the smallest of us doesn’t have an effect. It does mean that we both have responsibility, of course, and that’s important. We also have a superpower. We shape the world around us, every single one of us, every day. It’s funny that you bring up, like the future, some person in the future, because think about it for a second Often the weirdest result of that is that they go back in time, they kill someone insignificant or save the life of someone theoretically insignificant, and then everything on earth changes. You didn’t expect it to happen that way. Right, it isn’t just the big people, the big names, the ones we remember in scorn or in joy hundreds or thousands of years later. It is every single individual that is behind that person, that brought them to that point, and the loss of one of those individuals, the loss of the ability to shape from one of those individuals, may mean that that individual that we talk about the one that we score, the one that we speak of with joy. That person may not exist anymore. If that one person way down the chain the one burger flipper like me, the one writer, the one project manager didn’t have an effect, if that person just didn’t come into work today, we may not have had the big thing. It’s not necessarily I’m telling you that you as an individual are responsible for cleaning up climate change, because that’s bullshit. I am saying that you are more responsible for the greater things that happen in the world than you think. Not in a way that would mean something necessarily to you, which sucks, but in a way that means something to other people around you and that’s meaningful, also a bit scary, cool, but terrifying.
Courtney:
I feel like you are leaving us with a lot to think about Noreen.
Noordin:
I’m so sorry. I do that all the time oh no, I say that as like.
Courtney:
this has been absolutely amazing, and I wish that I could talk to you for several more hours.
Noordin:
The truth is at my core. I’m a very philosophical person. I think about this. I know this seems like I’m coming up with quotes for a podcast. I think about this stuff daily. I thought about this last night, in the middle of the night, in the middle of a colonial British fort in Canada, which is, you know, weird. That’s weird. I think about it incessantly. But that’s not to say you should. It’s just to say that I think that sometimes the big questions are the fun ones. Might as well ask them. Who knows what shows up. But also, what’s the point of doing stuff like this? I’m not here to promote anything. What else am I going to do? Tell you some boring stuff. I was born in Toronto, in Mount Sinai Hospital Super exciting, huh. Ask the big questions, get the big answers.
Courtney:
Well, if people do want to find you and find all of the projects that you are working on right now, where should they go?
Noordin:
They cannot. They cannot do that. I am actually a hidden whisper in the wind. So you’ve got to take a leaf and you’ve got to write down something that’s meaningful to you and place that in the note. Now you can just find at where we’ll feels. I don’t know why I did that. On social media. Sometimes I do things and it’s just. I am more whimsical than I’d like. At where we’ll feels in social media is usually where I update on projects I’m doing. Keep in mind I’m sporadically on projects. I’m not on as many things as people think it is. Yes, I have a long list of credits. I’ve been on for years, so sometimes I may not promote anything at all and it may just be like sad in public or maybe philosophical in public, or I may just talk about how I had a great Coke Zero. But if you’re not interested in following my social day-to-day nonsense, you can keep an eye on Nourdin Ali Kedircarrdco and that’s where I just post the links, as I am allowed to post them. I keep it updated once a month. That’s the most I can manage. But you’ll find things to click on there and if you’re ever curious about something, you can always shoot me an email, nourdin Ali Kedir at gmailcom. That is how most people contact me and that’s how I will reply to almost anything, so long as it’s not ridiculous. If it takes a while for me to reply to you, it’s probably because I am drowning in something. I will get there. I will get back to you. If it’s emergent, let me know, tell me a time frame, but honestly, the best thing you can do is to check out the various projects that I’m on that you know. I’m on, like the Atomless or Missing Any Lee or Villains a Vampire, the Masquerade campaign coming out on Carion Comfort in October. I don’t know when this is going to be released, but I’m assuming it’s around that time. It’s either already released or it’s in the process of being released or it’s about to release, and that means you can engage with it. I’m only in one episode. It’s episode 11. I’m scary. I will say that I play a straight up villain, as is the name, but it’s also one of the most fun times I’ve ever had working with Leslie and Wes, where it was great. The Atomless will find me playing in a frit that people really want, if I’m being honest with myself, to bang, and obviously I appear in many other things. I know a lot of people still know me for Missing Any Lee, which is a project I enjoy greatly. If you want to catch up with my writing, watch out for Into the Motherlands it’s coming in 2024. And keep an eye out for the Vineyard, which will be coming out, I think, in 2024 as well, which I’m actually in the process of doing some drafts on right now, and other than that, I think everything has been released already, I think, so it should be good. Yeah, that about covers it. Long list.
Courtney:
Well, you do a lot of things.
Noordin:
Sure.
Courtney:
So, yeah, I will make sure that I’ve got links to your card page. Some of your other projects that are current up on the show notes Aw, thank you. Well, at this point I am going to wrap up the interview portion of this recording. So, listeners, if you are interested, after I stop recording I’m going to immediately start recording again and go into a fun, patron-only quick question blitz where I’ve got 10 questions that I will be asking Noordin and patrons will be able to hear this exclusively over on Patreon. Just look for a roll Play grow. We’ve got some silly questions. Some are gaming related, some are not, and it’s always a good time.
Noordin:
Looking forward to it.
Courtney:
But thank you again so much for coming on the show today. This has been a wonderful conversation.
Noordin:
Hey, I love talking shop incessant. No one talks to me about shop enough. Talk to me about shop. Get in the weeds with me. It’s fun.
Courtney:
You just finished another episode of roll play grow. To check out the show notes and transcript from today’s episode, you can go to lightheartadventures. com/rpg. To keep up with every episode. Please subscribe on your podcast player of choice and, if you’re enjoying the show, I would absolutely love if you would leave me a review and share this episode with your friends. Your review might even get featured on an upcoming episode. To contact us, you can email rollplaygrow@ gmail. com. There are a lot of social media sites out there right now, so look for roll play grow for the show account and look for either Ketra or Ketra RPG for my accounts and Dungeon Glitch for Matt’s accounts. Lastly, I want to give a special shout out to our editor, sam Atkinson. Your help is always appreciated, sam. Thank you all so much for listening and I’ll see you next time on roll play grow.
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