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Adventures

083: Making dice boxes that look tasty enough to eat with Andrew of Dodecadonuts

 

Get ready to roll the dice and hit the sweet spot with our guest, Andrew Davis, the genius behind Dodecadonuts – a successful venture blending the world of tabletop gaming with deliciously whimsical doughnut-shaped dice boxes. Andy reveals his journey, from his long-standing passion for gaming to the creation of a business that’s as entertaining as it is tasty. He takes us on a tour of his experiences at gaming conventions like PAX West and the reactions of the gaming community to his unique confections.

Then, Andy tells us about the behind-the-scenes action – from the initial days of managing his hobby business on Etsy to the strategic transition to Shopify. You’ll learn what goes into setting up an online shop, optimizing it to minimize fees, and his future plans to take his business to a whole new level. But it’s not all business – Andrew also discusses the fun and intricate details of doughnut production. From hand injecting urethane to 3D printing, he shares his experimental journey with different materials and methods, and the importance of safety measures in his craft.

Finally, Andrew gets real about the entrepreneurial side of Dodecadonuts. He talks candidly about the hurdles of marketing a unique product and his savvy use of platforms like Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok to reach his target audience. He also discusses how he builds relationships with his customers at events like PAX and GenCon, proving just how much he values his gaming community. With a story as unique as his product, Andrew imparts the thrill of turning a love for gaming into a successful and downright delicious business venture.

This episode was edited by Sam Atkinson.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

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Time Stamps

  • 0:08 Introduction
  • 2:53 Andrew Introduction
  • 12:03 How Andrew started making dice boxes
  • 21:44 Growing the business
  • 32:59 His journey selling online
  • 38:29 Scaling up donut production
  • 49:53 What’s been the most challenging part?
  • 53:33 What has been the most rewarding part?
  • 54:39 The Dadvantage podcast
  • 56:45 Where can people find you?
  • 58:31 Wrap-up

Find Andrew & Dodecadonuts

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Transcript

Courtney: 

Hello and welcome to Role Play Grow, the podcast for tabletop entrepreneurs, creators and fans. In this show we dig into processes, challenges, tips and really look at how to grow a business in the tabletop role-play gaming space. Sit back and join in as we learn from the creators behind your favorite brands about who they are and how they are turning their passion for gaming into a career. I’m at today’s guest. A few weeks ago at PAX West, I was wondering the TTRPG section of the convention when Brenton waved me over to look at the coolest dice boxes that were shaped like donuts. There were dice towers shaped like coffee mugs and I was absolutely enthralled. I’m at Andrew, the owner and creator behind the shop DoDeka Donuts, and I immediately went. I have to talk to you on my podcast. Here’s my business card and we get and now he’s here. I am really excited to share this conversation with you all today, as he is a delightful person who creates the best dice boxes to add a bit of whimsy to your table. We dig into how the shop came to be, how he is going about to a bunch of conventions and actually has plans to do a bit of a convention circuit over the next year, and it’s just really interesting look at how to start and grow a business that is creating some really fun crafts. Before we get into the interview, I do want to remind y’all that the game that I am project, managing Burnaway, is live on Kickstarter right now, through the end of October. In this game, you play as Burnaways, a group of mercenaries hired to confront Embergeists, which are spirits that are so upset about something that their ectoplasm combusts. You either have to exercise them or playgate them, which involves finding clues in the burning building you’re exploring to figure out who they were, why are they upset, and convince them to leave. It’s a fun game, meant for short campaigns, that is live on Kickstarter. If you are interested in keeping up with the game, you can look for Burnaway on Kickstarter and I’ll also have a link to the page and the show notes.

Andrew: 

It’s going just great. It is fantastic. I’m really excited to be here.

Courtney: 

I’m excited to get the chance to talk to you. I know that it was probably Dodecad onuts hectic when just some random person is like, oh hi, I want to interview you in the middle of an event.

Andrew: 

Yes, yeah, pax West where we met was, yeah, it was like it’s a little overwhelming. There was a lot of people there, by far the biggest convention that I’ve ever attended as a vendor, and it was, yeah, it was fun.

Courtney: 

Yeah, if it wasn’t the biggest, it was probably like the second biggest that I’ve ever attended. I’m honestly really curious to know what the actual numbers were.

Andrew: 

I remember talking to the rep and I think they said their expected attendance was like in the 70 to 80,000 range and the tabletop area. They typically say they expect like 12 to 15,000 people there. I’m pretty sure I talked to like 4 or 5,000 people over like four days Just myself individually, that’s not counting anybody else who was at the booth with me. Good, Lord. Yeah, insane.

Courtney: 

That is god. No wonder Like that’s very overwhelming.

Andrew: 

Yeah, yeah, it’s pretty intense. By the fourth day my pattern was a lot less, was a lot less enthusiastic than it was the first couple of days.

Courtney: 

I’m not man. I was exhausted by the end of day two. It was just like, hmm, okay, and I wasn’t trying to tell things, I was just walking around talking to people. Man. Okay, well, to kick things off a little bit, can you just tell us a bit about who you are and how you got into gaming?

Andrew: 

Sure, so my name is as we said, my name is Andrew Davis. I am a long time creative director and in advertising, but you know, a long time just general creator, like I have always made stuff and been pretty creative in my life. My father was an artist, my brother and I both super, super creative our whole lives, kind of like. I got into gaming, I think the way I’m on the older side, I’m like Gen X, so I got into the way the gaming way a lot of my fellow Gen Xers got into it, which is playing stuff like Risk and Monopoly and cards with your grandparents and trivial pursuits and a fellow and all the rest of it. Yeah, that’s kind of how I got started with just broadly in gaming and just always enjoyed playing games and stuff like that. It’s always fun stuff to do around the house, around the family.

Courtney: 

Yeah, what do you play these days?

Andrew: 

What do I play these days? Good God, I have a huge stack of I mean, I have just the classic stack of boxes that board gamers have of all these different sorts of games. Frankly, I buy sometimes I buy games just because I love the artwork on them. I just at PAX, I picked up on Berricks, nexus, Inferno by this company, archon, which is apparently the way that I haven’t had a chance to play it yet. You play one of six cults who’s trying to raise your dark lord and some sort of apocalyptic thing. The graphics were amazing and just the premise of it made me laugh. So I was like, okay, well, I kind of have to pick that up. But you know, I play a lot of different games. I play a lot of role playing games.

Andrew: 

I started when I was like 12 or 13,. A couple came over to for like a dinner party with my parents and they brought the red box set for D&D and they were going to. We were going to play D&D as like a which no one had played before. No one understood what it was, but we were all going to play it as a like a dinner after dinner kind of activity and my parents this other couple completely bounced off of it, like they were just like what are we looking at? And my brother and I were like oh, this is kind of interesting. And I was like obsessed. So you know, I started.

Andrew: 

I was in the high school. My high school’s D&D club played a ton of like Gamma World and all the old school stuff. You know I have all the. I still have all my original A D&D books from back in the day. So yeah, I mean I just kind of really fell in love with TTRPGs. Then I stopped playing, a little bit like college kind of mid 80s or late 80s I should say. I stopped playing for a long time Partly I just kind of just didn’t have a group of friends who were as into it as I was. But picked it back up again when my kids were younger and started playing with them and have been playing with really my kids and other extended friends and family like that for a long time since.

Courtney: 

Yeah, I mean that’s really fun, that like you’re even if they weren’t necessarily entered at the beginning like you kind of got your start with like trying with your family and now it’s like kind of come full circle and you’re playing with your kids.

Andrew: 

Yeah, for sure. And you know, like I think it was just one of those things where you know, especially in that moment in time, like the idea of a role-playing game, nobody really knew how to play it. Well, I mean, one of the things I think the things that’s been like just a tremendous boon with like fifth edition, is All the live streamers and being able to see you show like critical role or dimension 20 or just other people playing the game, and just like if you’ve never played it before, to see somebody playing it. So you go like, oh, I could play it like that or I could play it like that, like I mean I serious was when I was a kid.

Andrew: 

I was a serious murder hobo, just like all my friends. It was just all about how much loot you could get and these battles. But it wasn’t. It was like zero role-playing. It was just purely like this weird tactical thing of your career going and creating a map and All those sorts of things. Now that I’m older, like sort of exploring the other parts of the game is like super fun, but a lot more it’s differently entertaining.

Courtney: 

Yeah, like. So my husband and I just recently Made a new group of friends because we’ve only been in Seattle for like a year and a half, and so we just met some neighbors recently and a lot of them are, like, interested in D&D.

Courtney: 

But I’ve never played it before, and so we’re introducing them and like it’s so funny how it’s like okay. Well, I guess your expectations are that we’re gonna do a dungeon crawl. That’s fine, we’ll start with that and we’re doing that. They’re starting to like get a feel for things is going well and then like I’m like okay, but also, um, I really want you guys to watch dimension 20, just two hours at a time.

Andrew: 

Okay, by the way, just so you know, I want you to be fully. You don’t have to do voices. But if you want to do voices, that’s okay.

Courtney: 

Yeah, for sure it’s just like okay, it’s shorter than critical roll. You know it’s comedians, like it’ll be, you’ll have a good time. We don’t expect you to do this level At all. Yeah, I would be amazed if you did, but no, but just Role-playing, it’s fun.

Andrew: 

Well, it’s very funny because so when I got back into playing D&D, I was DMing for my son, who at the time was like a freshman in high school, so I DMed For him. And then I ended up DMing separately for my daughter and a group of her friends. So it was my son and a group of his friends and then my daughter and a group of her friends and I was DMing two separate campaigns, kind of in parallel. And then and I was also getting but I was like, but hey, I wanted, I want to play. So I started going to like Games at Berkeley, which is my friendly local game store and this, and I basically was going there at first as a player. Then I started DMing for them as well, which is like because I’m a dumb ass. And Then I saw that I was like okay, wait, this is too much. I’m like I have a full-time job. I’m like trying to run three campaigns and do this fairly intense job.

Andrew: 

At the time I was like I got a bail on something. So I I Backed out of a couple things. My son’s campaign wrapped up. He wanted to run stuff. So I was like you run it for your friends, great. So I pulled way back and then I started to miss it again.

Andrew: 

So I went back to the, to the games of Berkeley, and I started playing with a group of people who are all, like, frankly, like half my age, you know they’re they’re not much older than my daughter is, but they’re now like a tremendous group of really really good friends. We played together. We had been playing for like almost a year before COVID hit and then we moved online and so now we like meet for dinner. We have, like you know, it’s it’s just really been a Real blessing in a lot of ways in terms of being able to meet people that I would not have otherwise met at all and, frankly, formed some really pretty great relationships over. It’s been, you know, just, I think that’s one of the things that’s really fun about games like this is they do give you this opportunity just to spend time with people and Kind of be goofy, which is great.

Courtney: 

You know, it’s super fun, yeah so Okay, you got into playing it, into DMing a lot.

Andrew: 

Yes, into DMing a lot.

Courtney: 

And then, at some point, dodeca doughnut started. Let’s establish what is dodeca doughnut.

Andrew: 

Right. So what is? A dodeca doughnut, as your listeners might guess, dodeca being 12-sided and a doughnut. It’s not actually a 12-sided edible doughnut. What it is is and I’m not sure I can fully explain the thought process, but it is a. It is a wooden doughnut that has eight pockets on the inside to hold your dice and it’s held together by magnets. It’s basically a carved wooden doughnut that is painted to look as much like a real doughnut as I can possibly make it, but it splits apart to hold your dice. It sort of the Genesis of it.

Andrew: 

As an idea came about as we were talking about critical role. The sort of second arc of critical role had started and Jester was right and they were Laura Bailey was just establishing that Jester was obsessed with pastries at about the same time that I’d gotten I’ve always had a woodshop and so I had gotten a small CNC machine and I was trying to figure out a project that might work for something that scale. And and I was just sitting around talking with my kids and we were talking and trying to sort of figure out what I could make and it just popped into my head that like, oh, I bet I could make a dice doughnut. That would be really funny. You know, that would just be kind of a silly thing to make. And then I thought of the name and I was like, oh, dodeca doughnuts is just a really good name for something. And I was like, well, you know, crap, I got it. Now I have to make the thing. So I went off and just Again because my backgrounds and marketing and stuff I just went ahead and registered the URL to have it.

Andrew: 

And then I started trying to figure out how to how to make this thing. And I made like the first. You know, because when you’re just sort of messing around trying to prototype stuff, it took me a little while but I made like probably Half a dozen of them and painted them all different and was just trying to experiment, figure out how I could, what would sprinkles be made of, and it was just kind of a fun, kind of creative project. And then they looked really good and I went out and bought like a dozen donuts, like actual donuts, and then just put the real doughnuts next to the the fake ones and took some pictures and they looked really really good. I was like, oh man, I wonder if I could sell these. And so I started trying to Sort of figure out how I could see what the reaction might be and like where the audience was. You know, I mean, that’s one of those things where I think it’s important with stuff, particularly stuff like this. And this was, you know, to be fair, this is like five years ago. This is five or six years ago that I started doing that, when I made the first one.

Andrew: 

So I think I signed up for like a geek craft expo which was like a cheap, it was very inexpensive table it’s like a hundred bucks for a table for a weekend and In Fort Mason Center in San Francisco, didn’t sell a thing, didn’t sell any donuts, and made like a really kind of a very sort of quick and dirty display for him, had a banner put together, you know, just enough to look kind of professional, some cards, but I was at the event and Nobody at the event, everybody. It was geek craft, but it was like it’s more like anime and like meme stuff. It was not gaming focused at all, and so I was kind of like, oh well, okay, well, clearly my audience is not here, it’s not as broadly nerdy as I thought it might be. Nearby where, where I live, kubla Khan happens every year and it’s one of the larger sort of West Coast board game conventions. I Called them and they had I could get like half a table. They had like guest artist spots for the weekend so you could get like half a table for a couple hundred bucks. So I was like, okay, sure I’ll, you know. So I made, I made more, you know. So this time, instead of having just like six or eight, I showed up with, you know, I had a couple, I maybe had two dozen doughnuts and it was one of those things where I, you know, I had my little half a table. I was sharing it with a woman named Teresa, who was now somebody that I see another convention. They were always like, oh, my god, you know, but you know, shared a table with her and then the same sort of thing.

Andrew: 

Like you know they’re, they’re a funny product to show, because this is I love is the fact that they are very confusing to see, right, you know, like I cannot tell you how many people walk by and they’re like are you selling real? Like they show up and they’re like, oh, doughnuts, there’s like somebody selling actual, like edible doughnuts at a convention, not in the food hall, just as part of the vendor table. It’s like so they’re already like kind of perplexed. And then when you show them a doughnut, you’re holding it in your hand and from like a few feet away they look like a real doughnut. They’re like why is this guy handling it? Food product? And then I split it open and it’s got dice inside and you can just see people’s brains break a little bit and they like Double-take. I get all these people who are just like you know they look super confused and perplexed by the whole thing.

Andrew: 

But they’re very well made. I spend a lot of time making sure that they are. It’s funny to me to make something to the very best of my ability that is so ridiculous. So that like combination of stuff. But it’s also that that makes them like way more interesting in a lot of ways than just making something that I had like Injection molded in plastic or something like that.

Andrew: 

Yeah, so was that kula con, and then slowly just grew my presence at kula con had it again, had the like really good reaction to the first set of doughnuts at kula con and people were just like these are amazing. And so every year when I go back to kula con, which has been the big convention I’ve always done For me. Every year I’ve gone back. You know we they shut down for COVID, but I’ve been back. You know, ever since then I’ve come back every year with growing my presence.

Andrew: 

So it started with just the doughnuts and then it was like doughnuts and some stickers and a few t-shirts and then, most recently, I Showed up and I came up with a coffee cup dice tower which essentially is like a dice tower, that, so you can have coffee and doughnuts, it’s all, it’s all bits. All I do is bits. So it’s coffee and doughnuts. So you drop that, you have your doughnut that holds the dice and then you can drop your dice into the top of the cup and there’s a little 3d printed insert that bounces them out and they come, the dice come out of the hole on the side. It’s just all pastry food, it’s just food puns, it’s food D&D puns, which you know they’re surprisingly a lot that if you think about it, you can make work. So I know that was a little bit of a rambling discourse on what is a dodeca doughnut? I guess. No, that was perfect.

Courtney: 

But since we are audio only, I would love if you could just paint a picture of like what I mean? Yes, they look like doughnuts, but just yes paint a word picture.

Andrew: 

So imagine if in your mind the platonic ideal of Homer Simpson’s doughnut right, so you have this lovely sort of light colored bottom and then pink, the pink frosting on top with the sprinkles. Then take that platonic idea and split it. Imagine someone has just sliced it horizontally so that it comes apart. The top and the bottom of it come apart. When you open it up there are pockets. There are eight pockets inside and two pairs of magnets that hold those two pieces together. And so basically, functionally, what they are is I Make them out of a variety of woods, but essentially I have a CNC router that’s carving the pockets. I Round over the edges of that so that it’s nice and it looks like a torus, looks like a bagel, essentially.

Andrew: 

And then most recently, I’ve changed how I’ve made them. I started created like a urethane mold, and so I the frosting is cast in urethane so I can paint it separate from the doughnut, like all the sprinkles are just their glass bugle beads, you know. And then I just basically Glue, pour, paint, all that stuff together and then it all comes together at the end. And then when I sell them I sell them with a pink felt bag, so kind of like the pink boxes you get doughnuts in from the grocery store. Yeah, so like the classic Homer Simpson might be, the bottom of it might be like made out of maple or cherry. You know, if you want more of a chocolate doughnut, then I would make the bottom out of like walnut.

Andrew: 

Like the tops I’ve painted all kinds of different ways and then, like the last couple of shows have been starting to make mimic doughnuts, where I actually go and take like a the Homer Simpson one, and I’ll like use like a two-part epoxy Clay and essentially mold, like the tongue and a bunch of teeth and a bunch of other eyeballs and bunch of other stuff, and then I’ll paint all that and and add those because I just again, this is all purely what amuses me as a gamer and as a TTRPG person like the idea of just like trying to like wedge together these two things, the food and the gaming stuff. Just it just takes you to some very funny places that I don’t feel like a lot of other people are doing work in.

Courtney: 

So Okay, honestly, after that, I really just want to go buy some doughnut.

Andrew: 

Everybody at these shows everybody’s like, aren’t you? If I had that at my table, I would just be hungry all the time. I’m like dude, it is a sugar and gluten-free High-fiber doughnut. Like you know, we would wreck your teeth to eat one of these things, but I guarantee that it’s diet friendly. You know it’s pretty funny.

Courtney: 

So between that point and the first couple of conventions, like right how much time passed.

Andrew: 

So I probably made the first one. What are we’re in 2023 now? I probably made the first ones in 2018, right? That’s probably when I made the very first couple of couple of donuts, and so this is right when everybody’s cosplaying jester and my daughter was really heavily into cosplay at the time. So, you know, I made a few and then I kind of was it had always been, I think, really up until like very, very recently I’ve been really seriously considering me pivot. It’s always been like a hobby business, right.

Andrew: 

So I would spend a month or two making a bunch of them and trying to figure out and and it’s like Anything that’s handmade, like this, that is net new, it’s not like I can go. I can’t, like you know, order a bunch of blank boxes from another vendor and then just laser engrave them or something else like that, like their stuff, that I have to basically figure out how they’re gonna work, and then so it’s that I don’t know if you there’s a whole thing about like you fail 10 times on something. So the first ones that I made, like I made them, they looked pretty good, but then I realized that like, oh, like my order was wrong and how I was assembling them. So, like when I sanded, I started sanding the finish off of the magnets that I had put together and I had. There was a lot of experimentation the first few years and just sort of figuring out how to make them. I would make them better every time, you know, because the first few were they were great and I was happy to sell them and I’m very proud of what I made. But every time I make them I get better at making them right. I get better at how do I understanding the mistakes I made in previous rounds of them. So I would make them in batches and those batches started to get bigger and bigger over time. But you know, I would basically make. You know I’d make 50 at the beginning of the year and I’d take them to Kubla Khan. I would sell, you know 10 or 12 and I would put the rest of them up on an Etsy shop and sell them through the rest of the summer of the year and I tend to run out in the fall and then I would be like, okay, well, now I’m gonna make another batch.

Andrew: 

So that’s kind of like the progress of the doughnuts sort of. You know, without getting into the details of like specifically why certain things were failing. But like one of the big reasons to move to like the urethane lid was how do I make them in a way that improves the quality, because it makes it a lot easier to paint. I can do a lot more stuff with the paint jobs when I separate the frosting from the actual doughnut. But it’s also about how can I make them faster and like more efficiently. I was spending 3 to 4 hours per doughnut because I was hand carving the frosting on every doughnut and then I would have to sand forever because I really wanted it to have this really like tight, high gloss kind of finish to it.

Andrew: 

My personal goals regarding quality were like coming into conflict with how many I could make. I’ve had plenty of game stores and stuff like that approach me be like hey, if you can bring this price down at all, we would love to carry them, either on consignment or something else you know. So it really starting like this year really became clear to me that if I wanted to that a, it was possible to bring it, move it beyond just being a hobby business, but also like oh, hey, that there’s. You know, if I can figure out how to like drive this. It could actually be a real business that I could, you know, make a more significant part of my living on, which is kind of the goal. Now, you know, it’s probably a couple years of kind of really treating it as like the hobby business.

Andrew: 

And then, when one of the things I realized at like Kubla Con and I talked a lot with the organizers at Kubla Con because they become friends and they’re everybody’s really interested in the product is, you know, the donuts themselves are fairly expensive. You know, there I sell them for about $125 and up, depending on like the mimic donut clearly is going to be more expensive than a regular donut. And what I realized there was that like I had, like I was doing a really good job of setting kind of the top price at the booth but I didn’t have anything for people who wanted something from me. They were engaged with the brand, they were engaged with me personally. They love the story of the donuts, but they didn’t necessarily have something that they could afford to buy on their budget, you know, which is a little different than like the packs experience was like kind of like through me, honestly, for a little bit of a wrench, because there are a lot of people there.

Andrew: 

I brought 75, almost 80 donuts with me.

Andrew: 

I sold 65 of them. Wow, you know, in four days, like, and I sold relative to that. Like you know, at Kubla Con my experience would be like oh, I’m going to bring 30 donuts. I might sell a third of those. If I was having a very good show, I might sell a third of them.

Andrew: 

But I was sell a bunch of t shirts, I would sell a bunch of stickers, I would sell a bunch of the coffee cups. So I sold plenty of coffee cups at packs, but fewer relative to the total number of donuts that I sold. Like it was a little. It was super interesting just to see kind of the different audiences there and like who was willing to spend and what they saw as like a barrier for pricing, right so, and I’m going to be at Big Bad Con at the end of September and it’ll be interesting to see how that I mean like universally everybody loves the donuts. They really into the, they’re really into it, but it’ll be interesting to see who is able to buy versus, you know, buy or not. So that part of it was really interesting from a learning perspective at packs.

Courtney: 

Well, I also like. What’s kind of interesting too, is that packs is, you know, such a huge event and yet the majority of facts is you’re walking around and playing demos of video games. You’re not buying things on the floor, right, and so you know like obviously there was, there was a decent amount of things to look at on the tabletop floor.

Andrew: 

However, and yet, if you like, when you walk down to the X so up in the tabletop Expo Hall, phone brain was there selling dice and Misty Mountain Gaming was there with a big like triple sized booth selling a bunch of accessories. Phone brain was also down on the Expo Hall on the bottom floor and Misty Mountain was down there selling stuff as well, which I was kind of surprised at. I really thought it would be more segregated and there would be more kind of like video game merch at packs. But I mean, I know it was to my benefit. Anybody who buys dice is super interested in looking at the donuts.

Courtney: 

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, it will be interesting to compare that to like Big Bad Con.

Andrew: 

Yeah, yeah, exactly, I’m like. I’m like my expectation for Big Bad Con is it’s not nearly as you know. It’s going to be probably 35, maybe it’ll be 3500 people total for two or three days. Right, it’ll be a lot closer. That’s what Kubla Con size is. It’s about 3500 people, of which only a percentage of them are actually like tabletop people. You see a lot of like. I get a lot. It all. Show the donuts to people. I spend the whole show like basically opening and closing the donuts Again for those listeners. If you don’t want to interact with your potential customers and you just want to sort of sit there and do them, don’t make something that confuses people, because you will spend all day, every day, talking to people trying to explain what it is that you’ve made. For whatever reason, I’ve chosen to create a niche that is really narrow and I’m just like digging even deeper into it.

Courtney: 

I mean honestly, it’s true. Like when I saw the coffee cups I was like, okay, well, for one thing I would absolutely accidentally grab that all of the time.

Andrew: 

Yes, yeah, it’s really funny. There are some universal objections to the donuts. When people, when they see them and they’re like, they look at the donuts and they go, oh, that would make me too hungry, I would want to eat donuts all the time. I don’t know that that’s a bad thing. What’s the other one? I get a lot of? Oh, I own more than one set of dice, so like, they hold eight dice. So if you own more than one set of dice, that’s a problem. Or it’s something like oh, I’m not in the tabletop, I don’t like, I don’t value my dice that much, or whatever. I’m always like telling people like these are the donuts are for they’re like it’s too expensive for what I’m doing. You know, I’m like which is fine, you don’t have an issue with people being concerned about the price.

Andrew: 

But it is always kind of funny to tell people like, well, it’s the opposite of a dice jail. You’re rewarding the dice that are performing well by putting them in the donut. It’s restoring their energy, it’s keeping them well fed and happy. It’s a lot of magical thinking going on around the dice, you know. And then with the coffee cups it’s always like oh, universally, people are like oh, well, it would be great if you could like do this so that you could actually drink your coffee out of one side of the cup and use it as a dice tower, which I’m always like I don’t know that that’s a great idea, and they’re always like, oh well, I would try to drink from it.

Andrew: 

I’m like, well, that’s not that big a deal because it’s an empty coffee cup, right, it doesn’t weigh what a regular coffee cup is. It’s way more of a problem if you start throwing your actual dice into your hot cup of coffee at the table. That’s the real problem is that you’re going to do something like that. But yeah, it is pretty funny Like everybody’s got kind of the same. There’s definitely like a certain, the sales objections from a sales process perspective are always kind of in the same universe. It’s very funny.

Courtney: 

Oh, that wasn’t an objection. I was like oh, that’s hilarious, I know I would do that.

Andrew: 

No, no, I think it’s. I think it’s. I mean that’s that’s part of what I’m always pitching is like, I mean really, guys, like the dream is to show up at your gaming table with a donut and a cup of coffee and watch in the same way that your mind just broke when I dropped a die in out of the donut in the coffee cup and it rolled to the side the way you just went. What the actual everybody at your table is going to do that every time you do this, you know. So that’s, it’s, it’s super funny and it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s very fun.

Andrew: 

I also, I mean, I have to say it’s just a very different. You know, the whole brand sort of sets a whole different mood from a lot of the other accessories you see in the marketplace, which tend to be beautiful wooden products with, you know, dragons laser engraved on stuff, and it’s like there’s just a sort of like they would lean really heavily into the sort of fantasy milieu and it’s fun to make something that is so outside of that. You know, because there’s like there’s definitely a market for a lot more whimsy in this stuff than you necessarily see. You know, you have to pair that with, like, trying to achieve the quality parts of it. But I think you know there’s definitely an opportunity there for people who are thinking about products they want to make or things you know that should give yourself permission to to be a little, have a little fun with it doesn’t have to be a quite so grimdark all the time.

Courtney: 

For sure, yeah. So what point did you start the Etsy store?

Andrew: 

At what point did I start the Etsy store? I started the Etsy store pretty early, honestly, but I had gotten the URL and I was just looking for like an easy way to to. I didn’t really want to like pay for a Shopify subscription. I wasn’t sure if I really wanted to commit to it. It was sort of a low cost, low effort way to get an online presence up and running.

Andrew: 

When I first started, it was in a lot of ways it was great like I was again because it was a hobby business. You know, if I sold something every few months or once a month or whatever, like it was no big deal and a lot of the tools they have are great. The shipping stuff is awesome. You know, I’ve shipped stuff all over the world and it’s easy to deal with, like the customs and all the other stuff that you have to do, because it just goes through their, their shipping centers. When I started doing t shirts, I started using like printify and print full to do and they. Etsy has some nice integrations into your Etsy shop so you can just create listings for these, you know, for designs that you’ve made, and then they go up and I literally don’t have to do anything other than answer a few emails, you know, here and there. So that part of it was great. That’s like literally when I started the Etsy thing and I’ve been on Etsy pretty much ever since as the deck of donuts my the URL dot dot dot com is essentially a redirect into the Etsy shop and what I found was like, especially over like the last year, kind of like during co, but I started putting more effort and I was putting up more designs, I was spending more sort of more engaged with the Etsy shop. I had left full time work and started working as a freelance, freelance creative director, so I had a little more control over my schedule, so I could be a little more engaged with it. And so I started to do that.

Andrew: 

I started to spend more on advertising on Etsy and just trying to experiment with how I can drive a little more engagement, and it was never great but I started to get, I was selling more regularly and that was going on for like a year. And then, like I think at the beginning of this year, I really looked at like how much I was spending on Etsy versus how much I was actually making. And it could be just because I do it for living doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m a great ad guy. But you buy essentially search ads on. You’re buying search ads on Etsy and I had done what I could to kind of optimize that stuff. You know, I wasn’t deeply engaged with it but what I found was I was spending quite a lot on advertising and I was making a profit, but so much was getting eaten up by fees and some of the other stuff that I really found that, like you know, whereas I thought that I was doing, you know I look at my sales and I’d be like, oh man, I made you know 500 bucks this month or I made you know X amount of dollars, you know, over time I’d be like, oh, that’s pretty cool, that’s pretty cool. But then when I looked at the fees I was getting charged on the other side of it, I was like, wait, like 90% of that money is getting eaten up with fees and all the rest of it. And you know and I’ll to be totally fair to Etsy I optimized my shop to like minimize my fees. No, you know, there’s a lot of stuff that I could probably be doing to be more efficient on Etsy. But you know I’m connected.

Andrew: 

You know, in a couple of discords with other creators and I think sort of universally, everyone’s looking at Etsy and it’s very easy to see there’s less and less handcrafted stuff on Etsy. You know there’s less and less kind of it feels like the company is moving away from what I’m trying to sell. As you know, they want more commercially produced stuff at scale that I’m not particularly, then that I wasn’t really set up to sell and you know, the fact of the matter is if I’m going to pay that, if I’m going to pay essentially either through fees to them or like a subscription to Shopify, probably, you know and just talking with other vendors and other people who use it up, I’ll likely be shifting soon to Shopify. They have a lot of the similar integrations that I’m already taking advantage of and then at least if I’m spending money to drive traffic, I’m really just driving traffic for myself. I’m not necessarily driving it for random other competitive listings. So that’s sort of my story with Etsy.

Andrew: 

Again, I don’t really have any complaints with the service itself, you know, and, like I said, it’s been very good in a lot of ways for me when I was getting started, but it definitely feels like it’s pivoted away from what I’m interested in doing and we’ll see, you know I mean I may end it back on it. I’ve had a couple of places recommend that I look at like fair and try to get onto fair as fair as a like a whole sale or site for stores, so particularly for like the stickers and stuff that I make. There’s a couple of people have said like oh yeah, you would do well on fair, but fair is like they’re relatively new and they’re scaling somewhat slowly. So you know you can get on their waiting list but you’re just sort of at the mercy of when they decide to sort of open up for the next chunk of potential vendors.

Courtney: 

So that’s interesting. I hadn’t heard of them, but that sounds like cool concept.

Andrew: 

Yeah, it’s fair. F-a-i-r-ecom it’s basically for it’s super interesting, it’s basically a and they have some TTRPG stuff on there and they sell a lot of. Again, like it’s great for smaller vendors who are trying to sell stickers and other things that are going into like the game store, so like games of Berkeley, their buyer uses fair to like identify stickers and pins and other accessories that they might be able to add to their store. And then you as a vendor, you know you’re just basically, as I understand it, you know you’re basically accepting an order but you’re selling at wholesale prices. You’re not necessarily selling at retail prices. You know you’re not selling direct to consumer.

Andrew: 

Yeah, so you get to sell more, but your prices have to be a little lower, a little less of a margin. Yeah, which is one of the things like at the beginning of the summer I really tried to dig into, like the cost of goods, for what it was actually costing me to make like the donuts and the coffee cups and some of the other things, and trying to really look at how I could again make them more efficiently, make them with not less expensive parts. But, like you know, how can I like tighten up the time in order to maintain the same quality, which is always kind of the goal.

Courtney: 

Yeah, I mean, how long does it take you to make you know a batch of donuts, A batch of donuts.

Andrew: 

So yeah. So now I make them kind of in batches. It’s honestly I have to, kind of I was in a mad scramble to make as many as I could ahead of over the summer. So what happened was, you know, had a good event at KublaCon with the freelance work was a little quiet. So I was like, oh I’ll, I’ll just start.

Andrew: 

I made a spreadsheet and started, you know, pulling together, like here, all the gaming conventions in the US. Here’s their contact information, and I just started like I made a little like sale sheet. I don’t know. I basically, you know, made essentially like a one-pager PDF that just said pictures of the donuts and the description of what I was selling and kind of just generally like, hey, here’s my vibe, and was just kind of both applying, but then also just like when I could find contact information, I would just email people and be like, hey, is this something that would would be in the right vein? You know, trying to get a lot of the conventions were already sort of set in terms of their vendors and stuff like that.

Andrew: 

So the Pax opportunity came from one of those emails that I sent in, not expecting to get into Pax. I certainly didn’t get it. Expect to get in 2023. But then they said, yeah, can you do it? And that was in late May, early June, and so then it was like a mad scramble for me to figure out like, okay, well, I know I can’t make enough donuts the way I had been making them, so it was like a mad scramble to figure out how to like come up with essentially a new way to make them. So I’m like hand injecting urethane and all this other crazy stuff, so that was like figuring out a whole new process. So it wasn’t terribly efficient. The net of it is to say, whereas before it probably took me three to four hours to fully finish a donut individually, now I think I can get it down to about an hour of total work. So, which is great, and it’s not just that I can get it down an hour, but I also feel like the quality and the variety that I can make is better.

Andrew: 

Right, a lot of the stuff that I was doing before that was taking up so much time was like having to mask all these little bits and then paint it, and then, if I painted it and the paint job wasn’t great, you had to like sand it all off and start from scratch again. And now I can be like I can paint something, and if it turns out awesome, I can be like, oh, I’m gonna make more of those. And if it turns out horrible, I can be like, okay, well, I’m gonna put that in the pile of stuff to be thought about some more before I try that paint job again. No, yeah, yeah. So there’s a lot of like experimentation and everything in it. But yeah, that’s the goal. It was kind of the same thing with the coffee cups I started when I first started making the coffee cups in the first. No, I probably made a couple hundred of the coffee cups.

Andrew: 

Now at this point, the first 70 I was printing were just 3D printed. So I’d gotten like a little Ender 3 and I figured out how to get it to print stuff, but it took nine hours to do. Every little tower that went inside took nine hours to make, and so I was printing as fast as I could. But I was like, oh, I gotta make a, I gotta figure out how to do this faster. So I ended up making a mold of that 3D print and then just casting it with.

Andrew: 

I was already doing injection molding for, you know, homemade injection molding for the doughnuts. So I was like, oh well, I bet I could do the same thing for this. And so then I was able once I figured that out, I was able to kind of crank out a bunch of them much more quickly than I had been before, you know. So yeah, technology, technology, it’s amazing, hey, everybody. You know like if you’re gonna work with your thing where your rubber gloves, where your respirator get good ventilation, probably don’t do it in the basement of your house Like I’ve been doing it. So yeah, yeah.

Courtney: 

I was about to say don’t poison yourself.

Andrew: 

Yeah don’t poison yourself. Read the health and safety literature. Where your dust masks while you’re sanding. You want to be a long time where your safety glasses. I managed to just absolutely. I had a chop saw, throw a piece of wood into my face and chop bang up the bridge of my nose while I was working on stuff Because I was doing something a little sketchy and I won’t do that again. So, yeah, that is. You have it in your list of questions. Lessons learned along the way. Where your safety gear folks. Where that eye protection that’s the thing.

Courtney: 

Yeah, that’s the lesson that you don’t want to have learned. Yeah, that’s the lesson that you don’t want to have learned.

Andrew: 

Yeah, don’t go to the emergency room at 10 o’clock on a Thursday night with a big cut across the bridge of your nose because you’ve been trying to cut something that you’re not supposed to. Power tools are fun.

Courtney: 

I feel like I was gonna tell a story to relate, that wasn’t me, it was my mom, but I realized it’s actually bad if any of you are squeamish, so we’ll hold that for after the recording.

Andrew: 

Hold that for after the recording That’ll be for the after show. Everybody, we can talk shop accidents, yeah yeah, you know, I do actually really enjoy making them, even though they’re kind of they’re transitioning from a fully art thing to more of a production thing. But there are like it’s still really interesting and really challenging to make that sort of thing happen. It’s fun.

Courtney: 

Yeah, you mentioned earlier that you are thinking about doing this more full time than you have been.

Andrew: 

Yeah, so advertising is a very odd business but it is somewhat. One of the things that’s true about it is I’ve loved doing it, but I’ve been doing it for 25 years. I also love doing woodworking and doing kind of this stuff and I really enjoy meeting people at the cons. I think one of the things that’s so fun about the donuts is just the reaction people have and just like how much joy that you see in people’s faces when you know, by and large, when they see the donuts like, like I said I’ve said earlier, you know they the reaction is almost universally like really positive. So it’s like really fun to see that it’s a.

Andrew: 

It’s a great sort of like, frankly it’s a great ego boost for me, but it’s also like it’s just really fun to sort of put that sort of energy out in the world. I think probably in 2024, I’m going to try to go to all of the PAX events, like to go to PAX East, go to unplugged and go to PAX West and then also try to hit some of the other. I’m going to try and hit it like a more regular schedule of cons as well. As you know, like I may try to do a Kickstarter or something like that. Just but generally like if I can see if I can get enough activity.

Andrew: 

Both my children are very interested in sort of gaming and game design. My daughter is finishing an illustration degree and wants to get in sort of character design and that sort of thing. My son is very interested in sort of like game mechanics and game design that way. So it’s also a way for me to ideally be away, for me to. You know, probably we’re not going to be a full time gig, but it might be go from something that’s being sort of like five or 10% of my time to more like 50% of my time. So if I can do that and sustain that with the other work that I do, then it’d be a different sort of living that I’m doing now, but it would be, I think, equally satisfying. You know it’s.

Andrew: 

It’s very exciting for me to think about building a business of my own, which is not something so in sort of the advertising marketing field. What I’ve been in is, you know, you sort of drop into somebody else’s business and you sort of help them solve this immediate need to sell a product and sell a story or whatever that is, and so you don’t necessarily have, and one of the things that I like about business is sort of understanding the strategy behind driving those things. And so the idea of being able to kind of engage at that level with something that is my own is very, very interesting. And you know, I mean hell, I’ll do it for a year and if it completely falls apart I’ll do something else. You know that’s there’s no, you might as well go for it, right?

Andrew: 

You know life’s, life’s pretty short. You know, if you have a good idea and I will say like I’m saying that, but I’m saying that having, you know, five years of generally positive reaction to the product that I’m interested in selling, so I’m not like, I’m just like I did one event. Now I’m like, yeah, but I mean like I’ve had a lot of it. I’ve had a lot of good personal experiences and I’ve made a lot of good connections, so that I feel like I’ve been steadily progressing towards this. And now Pax is sort of like a big leap forward. So now it’s like, okay, well, how do I capitalize on that big leap forward?

Courtney: 

Yeah, I feel like now I want to bring you back and like a year and be like okay, yeah please do, please do, and I’ll be homeless and living out of a van.

Andrew: 

Yeah, I’m hawking wooden donuts in the back. Yeah, no, it’s who knows. Yes, I would love to be back in a year. Hopefully it’ll be a massive success. And yeah, but yeah.

Andrew: 

But, honestly, doing this podcast is part of me trying to sit here and go like, okay, how do I make the connections to be able to like leverage all this stuff and, you know, get my name out there and let people know that.

Andrew: 

I think that’s one of the things.

Andrew: 

Again, it’s sort of cobbler shoes, the cobbler shoes phenomenon, and I haven’t really spent that much time trying to do like social media or any sort of real brand building beyond just going to these events and kind of showing the product off. So the next level of this is getting those ducks in a row and actually doing that sort of work, which, again, I know how to do for other people but have never had to do it for myself, and so that’s like a really interesting, sort of like mental pivot that I have to make to sort of do that in a real way and sort of like, you know, super interesting, little challenging, but that’s, it’s all good, you know it’s. I’m again, like you know, just having that experience in advertising, like I have a lot of. I have a very robust skill set that is very well suited for a lot of what I’m trying to do. It’s definitely a lighter lift than somebody who’s like trying to come up with an amazing idea but doesn’t actually have that backstop of skills to capitalize on.

Courtney: 

Yeah, honestly, I feel like most people. When I ask the question I’m about to ask you, I’m like what’s been the most challenging part? They’re like marketing.

Andrew: 

It is, it is, it always is. It’s hard. What has been the most challenging in the past is like figuring out those efficiencies so that I can, like, actually scale the product. So that has been the problem and I feel like I’ve cracked that Right. I’ve finally gotten to a place where I’m like okay, I will continue to improve it, but I can see the path forward to how the product continues to get better and I can make more of them and I can have. You know, whereas before I didn’t know how to like, how would I tell somebody else how you’re going to carve frosting and sand it to a level that I was going to be happy with? It’s just not, there was no way to do that. But now I’m in a place where, like, oh, I figured out this and a jig on this tool and everything. It’s like, oh, I can have my son like sand donuts all day long and they’re going to be great, you know, I know that they’ll be, that he’ll do a good job and it won’t be as reliant on judgment. You know it can be more of a process moving forward.

Andrew: 

For me it’s the big challenge is like okay, how do I, you know, do the advertising? How do I do the marketing? How do I fund it? Like, how do I raise the money to be able to? You know, marketing is expensive. Getting your name out is expensive, so, like, how do I raise the money to do that in a way that is going to support the business and not just be? You know, there’s a joke within the ad world where somebody asks somebody like a business owner is told by his ass by someone about his advertising budget and he says, well, basically, I know 50% of my advertising is wasted, I just don’t know which 50%. It is Right and that’s very true. You know, in the tools, you know how you reach the appropriate audience is very difficult and a lot of the platforms that people had been leveraging, like Twitter and other sort of social media platforms some of them like Twitter, is collapsing in a lot of ways.

Andrew: 

Like, I was very, both in my personal life and in for Dodeca Donuts. I was very active on Twitter and after some of the stuff that Mr Musk did, I decided to. I’m just done with it. So I’ve moved over to like threads and Instagram and all this stuff. But those are totally different modalities, totally different sort of ways of interacting with people. And even just Facebook to Instagram is different sort of interactions than you see from like, you know, threads or Twitter to Instagram, right, they’re just totally different ways. There are different sorts of content are needed in different places.

Andrew: 

Or TikTok you know I’ve done some stuff with TikTok. It’s super fun, but it’s also like I’m not. I’m just I would rather be making the donuts than spending, you know, two days working on a TikTok. You know floss video involving the donuts, like it’s just not going to happen. So I have to. It’s that combination of factors of like how do you find this sort of content that’s going to work for you? And then, of course, there’s just like all the paid stuff, like you know, search, advertising and optimizing for search and everything that all has to be done. So it has to be done and redone. So, yeah, it’s, it’s no fun, it’s not. I mean I shouldn’t say it’s no fun, it can be, you just have to approach it with the right sort of frame in your head.

Courtney: 

It’s a lot and there’s so many platforms.

Andrew: 

It’s a lot, it’s a lot of stuff. Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, you know. So it’s like so. So, frankly, I look at like going to events like packs and you know like, if I ever end up at GenCon like there are opportunities to sell the product, but as much as anything there are also opportunities just get the name of the product out. And if all I had done was cover my booth fee at packs, packs would have been a success just by virtue of getting in front of so many people that are exactly my target market, versus, you know, the geek craft expo right. That if I had spent you know a big chunk of money to go to an event like that and then nobody had looked, even nobody even understood what TTRPGs were, much less that there is an accessory market for TTRPGs, would have been a huge disappointment, you know. So, like that, like finding your audience thing is interesting.

Courtney: 

So I feel like we’ve touched on this, maybe a little bit already, but what would you say has been just the best part of your journey up till now 100% is the people’s reaction to the product right?

Andrew: 

It’s just. I mean, really I’m a pretty happy person and it’s just. It brings me a lot of personal joy to see people smile and laugh about the product and to see just kind of like even when they’re making me crazy, like seeing little kids who are just freaking obsessed with the donuts and they’re like, oh my gosh, you know, like people popping them open and closing them and just sort of like have you know, having this really fun experience interacting with them. And then people who bought them Now that I’ve been selling them at KublaCon year over year, like people come back to those conventions every year and they come back and they tell me how much they have, how much fun they have with the donut every time they sit down to play their games. They’re like this thing just makes me laugh every time I look at it. So that part of it is just amazing. Yeah, that’s hands down the best part about it.

Courtney: 

Okay, well, I know we didn’t even get to talk about your podcast at all.

Andrew: 

Hey everybody, listen to the dad vantage.

Courtney: 

So if you want to take a minute and talk about, you know, like podcasts or any other kind of cool upcoming projects and stuff you’ve got.

Andrew: 

Yeah, yeah. So really, like you know, for me the coolest projects I’m working on right now are dodeca donuts, you know, and but I also, with another friend of mine, have a separate project called the dad vantage, which is two old school dads embrace new school play. And really, michael, my cohost, and I we’ve worked together for 20 years. We’re just extremely good friends. We started playing. I never realized that he was a gamer and he didn’t realize I was a gamer until like about the time I started doing the donuts and I mentioned that was like, oh yeah, I’m going to be at this game convention. He’s like wait, you game, like it just turned into this whole thing. So we basically sit down and talk about being a parent, being a father and and playing games with your kids. We talk a lot about like how to introduce kids to the kids to the game, how to introduce new players. You know we run through like rules, basics, but we also do a lot of stuff like we come up with tropes of different things. We’ll be like, okay, we’re both going to build an anti hero and what does that look like? And then we will sort of compare and contrast what we’ve built. We started doing some live play episodes more recently where my son has been the DM for a couple of them or vice versa. Now we’re switching it up where my son is now who’s? He’s 20 now, so he’s 21. So he’s he’s playing with us as we play through that. But it’s really it’s very interesting to sort of be able to play with your kids for this long and and watch how they develop, as I mean, he’s a good player and he’s a really good player to develop, as I mean, he’s an amazing DM. So it’s it’s super fun to kind of go through that process. But you can find it on all the, on all the regular places the dad vantage and it’s, yeah, super fun. And then you know, please follow me on tiktok, on the Graham and Facebook and whatnot.

Andrew: 

I am very seriously considering doing a Kickstarter. At the beginning of the year. They have a make 100 event, so I may be trying to do a little bit of a small Kickstarter at the beginning of the year just to sort of feel out what that platform is like. And so, if people are interested in it, hopefully I’ll be there sometime soon. But if you follow me on Instagram or any of those places, I’ll be announcing it whenever. Whenever it does happen, yeah, and then otherwise, you know, go to. I’m at wwwDodecaDonutscom. Right now it goes to the Etsy store, but soon it will go to some somewhere else. And, yeah, just keep track of it. And as soon as I have more donuts to sell, I will be putting them up on the side trying to get how, hopefully, I can take advantage of this holiday season and this buzz I’ve got going on.

Courtney: 

So I will have a link on the show notes.

Andrew: 

Sweet.

Courtney: 

Well, thank you so much for coming on today and just talking about donuts for an hour.

Andrew: 

Yeah, yeah, no well, thanks very much for inviting me. This has been super fun. I love talking about this stuff. I’m a D&D nerd and I’m a business nerd too, so it’s all like it’s like. This is an amazing intersection being able to sort of talk about how those things work together. It’s great.

Courtney: 

Yeah Well, at this point we are going to wrap up the interview portion, but after I hang up I am going to start recording again and we’re going to do a fun little quick question blitz for patrons. So I will be asking some extra questions. Some are gaming related, some are not, but that’ll be over in Patreon exclusive stuff. So if you are interested in listening to that, you can find role play grow on Patreon.

Andrew: 

Do it, do it, yeah.

Courtney: 

He said so I might even get featured on an upcoming episode. See you next time on Roll Play Grow.

Thanks for dropping by! We would love to know who would like us to interview, so please drop a comment here on the blog, on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or Discord to let us know who your favorite creators are! If you’d like access to more maps and content, including downloadable PDFs of our adventures, check out our Maps Patreon or Podcast Patreon. We’re able to do what we do because of all our amazing Patrons!

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